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Re: [Amps] AL-1200 debug at a distance: we might have a winner (W5GHZ)

To: km1h@jeremy.mv.com, knormoyle@surfnetusa.com, AMPS@contesting.com
Subject: Re: [Amps] AL-1200 debug at a distance: we might have a winner (W5GHZ)
From: TexasRF@aol.com
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 09:36:09 EDT
List-post: <amps@contesting.com">mailto:amps@contesting.com>
Carl is 100% right. Additionally, zeners fail in the shorted mode  
typically. I personally have never seen a zener fail in open circuit  condition.
 
As far as the bias voltage dropping from 5.8 down to .8v, there has to be  
some current flowing for the voltage to be present.
 
If the tube has no plate current at all, there are only a few  
possibilities. 1> the tube is biased off due to an open or very high  
resistance from 
cathode to grid (ground/B-). Be careful here as an open circuit  can allow the 
cathode voltage to rise to near the plate potential and can kill  you if 
touched. 2> the tube filament is not heated. A bad/open connection  somewhere 
in the filament circuit or open tube filament can cause this.
 
High duty cycle usage should not cause an open filament in the tube but  
sure can cause soldered connections to let loose due to heat rise.
 
Again, caution is needed as high voltages can appear in places that are  
normally grounded or near grounded. Please make no assumptions and do be  
careful!
 
73,
Gerald K5GW
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 10/19/2010 8:18:03 A.M. Central Daylight Time,  
km1h@jeremy.mv.com writes:

The  zeners are more than sufficient for that amp, just replace them and 
then  
try to find why they shorted. Youre not out of the woods yet with the  
tube. 
The shorted zener would still allow idle current and act as a zero  biased 
tube.

Also measure the safety diode on the edge of the PS  board.

Carl
KM1H



----- Original Message -----  
From: "Kevin Normoyle" <knormoyle@surfnetusa.com>
To:  <AMPS@contesting.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 1:47  AM
Subject: [Amps] AL-1200 debug at a distance: we might have a winner  (W5GHZ)


>  Hal W5GHZ suggested: "Check out the two Zener  diodes above the filament 
> transformer mounted on the wall.
>  The high duty cycle may have burned out one or both."
>
> Other  people seemed to point in the same direction, as they suspected I 
> was  saying "no grid or plate current" when
> keyed. (which was true:  zero.)
>
> I unconnected the filament transformer and did some  measurements.
>
> The AL-1200 schematics apparently aren't up to  date in the manual 
online. 
> I have a 2002 vintage rig, and the  transmit
> relay was changed then. That new little board requires 14v  and 28v so 
they 
> changed the full wave rectifier shown in
>  their meter board schematic to something with two diodes that gives 14v  
> and 28v (plus two 2200 uf electrolytics).
>
> At first I  thought those two little diodes must be what I was looking 
for. 
> (not!  although output from there serves to
> hold in one of the two older  style relays on power on).
>
> I also checked all the relays for  movement and they seemed good. You 
can't 
> see the new transmit relay,  but I could feel
> it clicking softly.
>
> The two zener's  are stud mounted with insulators on the mid wall, I 
guess 
> for heat  dissipation. The back side is right
> by the tuning cap. I didn't want  to mention that I heard a buzzing in 
the 
> amp and backed off on the  drive at one point.
> But the amp didn't die then, so I thought that  wasn't a contributor to 
> when it failed (looks like there's a  little
> arcing on the brass tab that protects arcing in the tuning cap  
though..I'm 
> wondering if that's what I heard, although it
>  kind of looks old).
>
> Last year we had a long discussion about  AL1200 and rtty and temp and I 
> had done a lot of measurements on temp  rise (in
> my setup) while CQing for a half hour straight into a dummy  load, with 
> temp probes so I could gather and plot temp rise
>  data. I was confident I wasn't going to cook the tube from that data. 
(for  
> my cooling situation).
>
> So back to the zeners. They  don't seem mounted in the best place for 
heat 
> dissipation. Maybe they  actually get hotter
> because of where they are mounted! They had very  dried out thermal 
> compound on the insulators.
>
> The  first zener is shorted by the CW/SSB switch. The second zener is in 
>  series with that one. So if the second one
> opens, you're dead for  sure? (no bias?)
>
> So I measured the voltages, and the second  one was definitely open. The 
> first one at first I guessed was okay  since it
> measured 5.6v.
>
> Looking at the current  Ameritron parts list on 
>  http://www.ameritron.com/Product.php?productid=AL-1200
> they list them  as 10W diodes (if mounted with low thermal resistance)
> DIODE, ZENER,  7.5V, 1N2971A, DO-4,10W, STUB MOUNT
>
> The 5.6v on that first  zener dropped to .8v when the amp was keyed, so I 
> suspected that  Zener was bad somehow also.
>
> I totally removed the zeners to  measure to be sure.
> The second one was an open in both  directions.
> The first one was 360 ohms in both  directions.
>
> So both were bad, but in different ways? (one  open, one semi-shorted)
>
> I won't know for sure that this is the  problem till I get replacements, 
> but this is encouraging.
> So  maybe Hal doesn't get full points till we know for sure.
>
>  Thanks everyone! It'll be great if this is the problem (and not a $1300  
> tube replace)
> Hey: any suggestions on a better replacement  than the 1N2971A?
>
> Should I get a better zener diode  manufacturer than what Ameritron 
sells? 
> Maybe just better attention  to the thermal
> mounting?
>
> Be interesting to know how  common this is.
>
> -kevin
> AD6Z
>
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