We all take the internet a LITTLE too seriously.
Question: IF Trey has the latest solar garbage on the reflector- how
fresh would it be by the time it wends its way through all the servers?
Trey is right, you operate or dont - usually because you're committed
(or should be committed !) to operating RADIOS not computers.
Sometimes the technologically feasible aint sensible!!!
********************************************************************
* W8CAR pems_st_dk@noeca.ohio.gov *
* Dan Kovatch *
* Antennas are the key - BUT an ALPHA sure doesn't hurt! *
********************************************************************
>From Moore, Frank (Hdw Eng)" <fhmoore@po7.pcmail.ingr.com Wed May 24 20:44:00
>1995
From: Moore, Frank (Hdw Eng)" <fhmoore@po7.pcmail.ingr.com (Moore, Frank (Hdw
Eng))
Subject: Monitor Results
Message-ID: <2FC38C85@hubsmp2.pcmail.ingr.com>
Everyone,
Thanks for the opinions and suggestions about monitors. The responses
varied a bit in that some people preferred the VGA resolution and colors and
others thought that CGAs were "quieter". However, other people said that the
VGA monitors that they had were as quiet as CGAs. My guess is that there is
a bit of variability in the RF emissions of different monitors, no matter
the resolution. It seems like the old adage is true however, you get what
you pay for and in an ideal world I would be able to afford a low emission
SVGA :-) Anyway here are some of the comments that I received. Again, thanks
for the help. Frank, KE4GY fhmoore@ingr.com
"Hi Frank, it's been my experience that most EGA/CGA setups put out much
more crud than a VGA. I thought that the EGA signals from the video
card to the monitor were basically digital signals with fast rise times
and the VGA has an analog interface to the monitor but I may be wrong on
that. I do know that some monitors/video cards generate more RFI than
others. I'm currently using a 15" Orchestra monitor with a generic
Trident video card that is dead quiet"
"I have no RFI problems with my VGA monitor, but my antennas are several
hundred feet away from the shack."
"I used an EGA color monitor up through CT version 9. I then switched
to a VGA monitor. The noise wasn't much worse than the EGA. I think this
is really more dependent upon the manufacturer than whether it's EGA
or VGA. One major pain with the VGA is that it is much more susceptible
to magnetic fields. It sits right next to the power transformwers in
an SB-220. When the SB-220 is on, the screen wiggles annoyingly."
"Get a clean SVGA monitor. EGA/CGA and Monochrome are dead ends.
Having said that, a very small monochrome monitor takes very little desk
space
if all you're doing is CT.
EGA monitors may give hash as well."
"What about a good old monochrome monitor (herculese graphics board)? High
resolution and good on the eyes. I won't use anything but this setup
in my station as it has the lowest amount of video hash that I have found.
Plus it's cheap.....$12 for video card and $70 for monitor."
"Although I use a colour screen for every-day stuff, I always
switch to a green monochrome MDA-type screen for contest use. I know
that CT still works with it, at least up to v8. I find the green screen
very
pleasant to look at for extended periods. I keep two video cards in the PC,
ane for the VGA and one MDA for just contest use, and I switch between
the screens using DOS's 'mode' command.
I think you'll find the monochrome screen resolution excellent for text, and
much quieter, RF-wise."
"By far (by far...) the best monitors for contesting are VGA which
support 800x600x256 resolution (buy the 32-bit video card for this
resolution to send to the monitor - $60). The monitor itself does not
need to be multi-synched (which are worth the money, but I can;t justify
the difference for my business computer much less for contesting...well,
maybe!) and needs some medium type resolution (.28??? pick some number
in the middle of what they show you). Non-interlaced is a must.
Do NOT buy EGA or CGA. You can only get VGA monochrome in the monochrome
mode.
Here is why it is important:
CT and NA now have multicolored windows up on the screen with the latest
versions. In our last contest, we had 11(!) windows open on CT at one
time in a standard (for the four positions at KS9K) position on the
screen (for example, the rate for last 10/last 100 only showed the
numbers on the blue background-we know what it means, we just need the
1/2 inch of screen real estate to see the numbers...). And,
interestingly to me, we actually USED all of the 11 windows."
"I use a GoldStar, InSync, and a CTX. All three are SVGA, work fine, and
as far as I can tell I don't have any significant interference problem
with them. "
"i am using ct 9.23 with mono-cga monitors because they are very quiet...
however they are also getting very hard to find. you also loose the 50 line
mode that ct does now and the pretty colors. i tried a mono-vga but it
was just about as noisy as the color vga."
"No problem with VGA monitors, just get one with low emissions. I have an
NEC
Multisync 12" from the radio and no problems. You really don't want to go
cheap on the monitor. After all, you are looking at it for a VERY long time.
I find the color keeps my attention. In fact, I've customized the CT color
scheme and find it helps keep the eyes from getting bleary."
"I use a Sony Multiscan HG Trinitron Super Fine Pitch,
which comes with a big sticker across the top saying "Low
Emission". Still not as quiet as my old monochrome, but a
damn sight better than other VGA monitors I've tried here in
the shack."
>From H. L. Serra" <hlserra@teetot.acusd.edu Wed May 24 22:33:12 1995
From: H. L. Serra" <hlserra@teetot.acusd.edu (H. L. Serra)
Subject: WPX CW/Propagation Forecasts
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9505241400.C29524-0100000@teetot.acusd.edu>
On Wed, 24 May 1995, Trey Garlough wrote:
> I don't need to listen to WWV to know whether conditions are good
> or bad, and I would never base a strategy decision on a WWV report
> received during a contest.
Except for the unconcerned intuitives among us, propagation information is
reportedly now available from the propagation reflector
(prop@digimark.com) Leading up to a contest weekend, some contesters find
the information useful in considering the likelihood and duration of
disruptive solar events during contests, and in planning time-off
strategy.
73, Larry N6AZE
>From fish@crl.com (Bill Fisher, KM9P Concentric Systems, Inc.) Wed May 24
>22:51:13 1995
From: fish@crl.com (Bill Fisher, KM9P Concentric Systems, Inc.) (Bill Fisher,
KM9P Concentric Systems, Inc.)
Subject: WPX CW/Propagation Forecasts
Message-ID: <199505242151.AA21807@mail.crl.com>
>On the other hand (somewhat qualifying what Trey says) in contests with
>off time it could be helpful to know what WWV's saying in order to
>estimate whether conditions will change (either up or down) in ways that
>could affect when you take your off time.
Probably a good point.
But for me... to date... I have never bothered with getting WWV numbers
before a contest.
In bicycle racing there are always guys who buy the "best" bike, spend hours
tweeking it for best performance, and buy lighter and lighter components to
make it go faster. For the most part, these guys finish at the back or
somewhere in the middle of the pack. It's funny to me that they don't spend
more time doing the real WORK that it takes to win a race. I've come to the
conclusion that most of these guys are missing the point... so to speak. I
don't think contesting is any different.
Some think there is some "secret" to winning that the guys that win know,
and the guys that don't, don't know. When I saw what 2 radio single-oping
could do for your score, I promised myself I would be the best at it that I
could be. I got on the air every day chewing the rag with the boys... Only
I would have one radio tuned into someone on another band distracting me
from the QSO at hand. I still do this today. After 5 years of practicing
every day, I can now operate the 2nd radio almost the entire contest without
touching the audio switch. My point? Operate the radio! Practice....
Practice... Practice !!! You'll improve your score more doing this than
subscribing to the WWV reflector or sitting in front of your computer for
hours tweeking your antenna for that last 1/10th of a DB gain.
Maybe WPX with off times it makes more sense... but in my experience with
WPX, you operate as much as possible the first day because it's almost
always slower the 2nd. Regardless of conditions.
I hope this message follows my new set of reflector rules for myself....
1. If you don't have any thing nice to say dont say anything.
2. If you said something this week, wait until next.
73
---
Bill Fisher, KM9P - Concentric Systems, Inc.
>From Hal Blegen" <halb@comtch.iea.com Wed May 24 23:13:35 1995
From: Hal Blegen" <halb@comtch.iea.com (Hal Blegen)
Subject: Prop in general
Message-ID: <m0sEOgK-000762C@comtch.iea.com>
>From west coast (whine, snivel) if WWV sez the K=4 (higher) at the start
of a DX contest, for all practical purposes, the contest is already over.
--
Hal Blegen WA7EGA
halb@comtch.iea.com
>From George Cook <george@epix.net> Wed May 24 23:49:30 1995
From: George Cook <george@epix.net> (George Cook)
Subject: Contesters as Coverguys
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950524184633.3000D-100000@peach.epix.net>
When last heard, JFSINGER@delphi.com wrote:
> Take contests out of QST? Why do you think CQ puts a big gun on the
> cover of every issue? Contesters obviously sell ham mags like boobs sell
> Cosmo.
> Instead of putting VE3EJ and his magnificent shack on the June cover,
Your 59 fiftynine maximum over:
Actually if they put some scantily clad young lady on the front of QST
whispering into an HT I'll bet the sales would really sky rocket!
But what of the expanded silent keys section in the next issue?
Hmmn maybe not a great idea after all.
Back to NET
*************************************************
* George Cook AA3JU Bangor, PA FN21 *
* george@peach.epix.net AA3JU@N3IQD.EPA.USA.NA *
* If you're not FRC remember:............... *
* .......There's no shame in being 2nd best! *
*************************************************
>From n2ic@drmail.dr.att.com (LondonSM) Wed May 24 23:54:18 1995
From: n2ic@drmail.dr.att.com (LondonSM) (LondonSM)
Subject: Propagation and Contest Strategy
Message-ID: <9505241654.ZM6499@dr.att.com>
Over the years, I have had many opportunities to compare my band breakdowns and
logs with other competitors. I have been amazed at the poor choices made for
band selection by others. I'm not talking about top-10, or even top-20 entries
- those guys don't make mistakes. It's the 2nd and 3rd tier entries I am
talking about. Many of these are people who aspire to be top-10, and even put
in enough hours in the contest (> 35 hours), but due to lack of experience, not
doing their pre-contest homework, or not asking the "experts", just choose the
wrong band at the wrong time. Here's some common examples:
Recently:
A participant at the run station in a CQWW M/S entry from the western W0 black
hole followed the Caribbean/SA MUF during the morning hours (14Z-17Z). First
they went to 20, as it opened, then followed the N/S MUF to 15 and 10 meters,
working every PJ, P4 and LU. They came back to 20 meters after 17Z. They
totally missed the peak EU opening from W0 on 20 meters from 1430Z-1700Z,
costing them several hundred QSO's (they made the mistake both days). I spoke
with the operator - he was still living in the past, expecting 15 and 10 to
open to EU. Bad move !
A few years ago (sunspot peak):
Similar story. 20 opened to EU and over the pole to Asia at sunrise. It was a
great opening. The operator was thrilled to work Zones 17, 22, 23, 39, etc.
20 was so good that they had a 60/hour rate S&P. However, they didn't make it
to 15 and 10 meters until 1700Z, missing the bulk of the sunspot peak EU
opening. You get the idea !
I guess the moral of my story is that the "intuition" about propagation that
comes "naturally" to some of us could be shared with others. I don't mean
posting WWV numbers and predictions, but some practical advice, such as "here's
a band plan to try if condx are disturbed", etc. For starters, AD5Q puts out a
darn good monthly prediction, oriented towards real band openings, not solar
flux numbers.
Steve London, N2IC/0
n2ic@dr.att.com
>From mwollnnn@colybrand.com (Marty Woll -- BA - Honolulu ) Thu May 25
>00:06:27 1995
From: mwollnnn@colybrand.com (Marty Woll -- BA - Honolulu ) (Marty Woll -- BA -
Honolulu )
Subject: re Young Blood/FD
Message-ID: <9505242306.AA04423@ad0.reach.com>
Adding to Gene 'ZZ's note that big clubs DO do Field Day, I might
point out that the all-time modern Field Day scoring record was
set twice by the Southern Calif. Contest Club, the second of which
(N6VI/6) has not been bettered in over a dozen ensuing years.
I think, though that we need to balance the "beat-the-world"
approach with the "go-forth-and-teach" philosophy. Too much of the
former may intimidate newcomers (or, worse, cause the organizers
to discourage them), while a purely benign approach may cause
those newcomers to miss the air of competition that really gets
one hooked. As in so many things, balance is good.
As for me, I'm lending some advice to a local club that wants to
do better than last year, so listen for those weak KH6's.
Aloha ...
|--------------------------------------------------|
| Marty Woll N6VI/KH6 < mwollnnn@colybrand.com> |
| |
| 59-758 Kanalani Place, Haleiwa, HI 96712 |
| |
| (H) 808-638-7720 |
| |
| (W) 808-531-3666 FAX (W) 808-531-3433 |
|--------------------------------------------------|
>From George Cook <george@epix.net> Thu May 25 00:11:21 1995
From: George Cook <george@epix.net> (George Cook)
Subject: Results in QST
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950524190930.3000E-100000@peach.epix.net>
When last heard, Rich L. Boyd wrote:
>
> No, the big knob is the "channel changer." Someone tells me his
> 25-year-old Yaesu called the RIT "Clarifier" also!
>
> Rich Boyd KE3Q
Your 3 3 Thirty Three Triplets over:
Hey would that mean I should re label my Speech Processer <DYNAMIKE> ?
Back to NET
GC
*************************************************
* George Cook AA3JU Bangor, PA FN21 *
* george@peach.epix.net AA3JU@N3IQD.EPA.USA.NA *
* If you're not FRC remember:............... *
* .......There's no shame in being 2nd best! *
*************************************************
>From Tim Coad" <Tim_Coad@smtp.svl.trw.com Thu May 25 00:14:54 1995
From: Tim Coad" <Tim_Coad@smtp.svl.trw.com (Tim Coad)
Subject: Contesters as Coverguys
Message-ID: <n1410790241.99485@smtp.svl.trw.com>
Reply to: RE>>Contesters as Coverguys
>>Actually if they put some scantily clad young lady on the front of QST
>>whispering into an HT I'll bet the sales would really sky rocket!
.........
Actually I think 73 Mag did stoop do nudity during the streaking fad of 1974.
But it was some guy running wearing only an HT!
Tim - NU6S
--------------------------------------
...
>From SELBREDE%ARIA-2.EDW@mhs.elan.af.mil (Bob Selbrede) Wed May 24 22:35:00
>1995
From: SELBREDE%ARIA-2.EDW@mhs.elan.af.mil (Bob Selbrede) (Bob Selbrede)
Subject: Single Op Off-Times - Summary
References: <F553BC2F02A1D0D1@-SMF->
Message-ID: <E6F9C22F01A1D0D1@-SMF->
Hi Again,
I would like to thank those who responded to my question regarding
Single Op Off-Times. There were a total of 18 responses. The original
posting is included below for those who didn't see it.
The majority felt that scenario #1 was the generally accepted
interpretation of the rule. Most people stated that the off-time
requirement should only apply to the times taken off between your first and
last QSO's in the contest. Four people said they believed that
interpretation #2 was correct. No responses were received from the
organizers of any of the major contests. Thanks for the bandwidth!
73, Bob W9NQ
Original posting was as follows:
*************************************
A fellow contester and I were discussing Single Op off-time strategy
and a difference of opinion came up regarding interpretation of minimum
off-time rules. I'm interested to know what the contest community feels is
the appropriate interpretation of the rule in the following case. Send
comments to me directly, and I'll post a summary. Let's use the CQ WPX CW
Contest as an example, since it coming up soon.
This contest requires a Single Op to limit operating time to 36 Hours,
and requires off-times to be a minimum of 1 hour in length. Here's the
scenario. Let's say that the Op takes a 6 hour break and then later takes
additional 3.25 and 2.25 hour breaks. At this point the Op has 11.5 hours
of off-time, but still needs an additional 30 minutes off to stay under the
maximum 36 hours. However, off-times must be taken in a MINIMUM of 1 hour
chunks. The question then becomes:
1. Can the Op continue to operate up until 30 minutes before the end of the
contest, and then just stop. This limits the operating time to 36 hours,
but does it satisfy the minimum off-time criteria?
or,
2. Should the Op stop operating 1 hour before the end of the contest (or
take another full hour off in there somewhere) in order to meet the
requirement for minimum off-time lengths?
I would appreciate hearing an opinion from the organizers of ARRL or CQ
contests on this subject as well. Many contesters may feel this subject is
very clear to them, or won't effect them anyway, and thus don't really care.
However, it could become a "bone of contention" if for some reason an Op's
log is dinged due to interpretation #2 above. So what do you think? Does
this ever become a factor in your contesting experiences?
Thanks es 73, Bob W9NQ
(SELBREDE%ARIA-2.EDW@MHS.ELAN.AF.MIL)
>From De Syam <syam@Glue.umd.edu> Thu May 25 01:52:31 1995
From: De Syam <syam@Glue.umd.edu> (De Syam)
Subject: WPX CW Thread?
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950524203025.9197B-100000@mocha.eng.umd.edu>
A few general observations about CW WPX:
1) The double points value for 40, 80 and 160 meter contacts makes it a
good idea to concentrate on 40 meters during the hours of darkness IF you
can run Europeans with your set-up (or any 6-pointers from wherever your
location happens to be -- I have to constantly remind myself that this
reflector is read on all continents). 80 and 160 are not generally worth
much time in the Eastern USA because of the seasonal QRN levels though it
may be worthwhile to S&P across 80 once each night just to work the loud
ones in other continents (and to catch single-banders with a prefix not
available on the other bands).
2) Other than that, with the sunspot cycle where it is, run Europe on 20
when possible, but remember: this time of year on the East Coast, if the
K index is 2 or below, you get a good MORNING opening to East Asia, so
keep the beams a little high on Europe - 30 degrees or so - during the
early morning hours so that Asians will call you too. The morning
opening skews the JA signals, for example, further toward the pole than
they would be in the evening so 30 degrees is usually good enough to get
them to participate in your European runs.
3) During the early hours of darkness the Europeans are likely to be
there on 20 and the band will be loaded with loud UA9/0's as well, so if
the 40 meter band doesn't go well, 20 is the place for you.
4) This is also sporadic E season, so during the mid-day doldrums when
the summer sun keeps absorption on 20 meters high, it might help to turn
the beam inward toward the interior USA and work those elusive 2 x 1
prefixes on 20, 15 and even 10, depending on conditions.
It does help to read the WWW propagation sources a few hours before the
contest to get the best take on what conditions are likely to be like.
It can help in planning. But don't stick to any plan if it's not
working, which your rate sheet in your contest program will tell you.
For N2IC: Experienced contesters sometimes screw up in propagation too.
I completely missed the Asian opening on 15 from here the first night of
the CQWW, and the band didn't give me another chance! At least it
proved, as one of my fellow PVRC members wryly noted after the contest,
that I am really honest when I say I don't use the packet during
contests.
The moral of the above is, if conditions sound too good to be true as the
contest starts, work everything as fast as you can, because the bottom is
about to drop out!
Very 73,
Fred Laun, K3ZO
>From Douglas S. Zwiebel" <0006489207@mcimail.com Thu May 25 01:57:00 1995
From: Douglas S. Zwiebel" <0006489207@mcimail.com (Douglas S. Zwiebel)
Subject: CW WPX tips (K5ZD)
Message-ID: <81950525005718/0006489207PK2EM@MCIMAIL.COM>
For Randy (and others new to CW wpx), the best advice I can give you is:
IF IT IS NICE WX, DON'T LOOK OUTSIDE!
This has caused me to withdraw from nearly every cw WPX I (thought) I
was seriously entering. de Doug/KR2Q :-)
>From H. Ward Silver" <hwardsil@seattleu.edu Thu May 25 04:19:39 1995
From: H. Ward Silver" <hwardsil@seattleu.edu (H. Ward Silver)
Subject: Contesters as Coverguys
Message-ID: <Pine.3.07.9505242037.H16980-a100000@bach.seattleu.edu>
I seem to recall a few "scantily clad young ladies" on the cover of 73
magazine in the mid-seventies. Very popular at the U of Mo - Rolla; where
the men-to-women ratio was something like 12:1 at the time. (Typical
engineering school...)
You know what I would like to see? A KID contester on the cover...we're
all great guys and gals, but I'd like to see a real, live YOUTH on the
cover, just once! Without an adult in sight... Preferably a kid with a
backwards baseball cap, earring, baggy pants and saying something like
"Contesting kicks ass, man!" It would do more for getting young blood
interested than 10,000 of our shacks.
Thanks, I'm all better now...
73, Ward N0AX
>From Floydjr <floydjr@nando.net> Thu May 25 05:15:19 1995
From: Floydjr <floydjr@nando.net> (Floydjr)
Subject: Contesters as Coverguys
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.90.950525001126.18180D-100000@merlin.nando.net>
I really like the covers on CQ, but how about some equal time for "Little
Pistols" I beleive you will check that the bulk of any contest are the
scores submitted by low power stations.
I can see it now. A guy setting in front of a desk with one rig, a
computer, one rotor control, and NO ALPHA's.
Just a thought and I agree QST should think about doing the same on
theirs.
73's JIM // WA4ZXA "A Little Pistol"
>From ng0x@ix.netcom.com (David Curtis) Thu May 25 05:48:42 1995
From: ng0x@ix.netcom.com (David Curtis) (David Curtis)
Subject: FD/new blood/NR replacement
Message-ID: <199505250448.VAA14202@ix4.ix.netcom.com>
*whew* just caught up on a back log of 250+ mails. *deep breath*
FD is a key part of bringing in new blood. A lot of evidence points
that way. But FD is probably not a great operator training venue. And
making FD competitive is probably not going to turn it into an operator
training venue. Novice Roundup was out of sync with the way we mint new
hams now, and died a graceful death this past fall. Coming up with a
replacement for NR gives us an opportunity think about how we bring in
new contesters. Here is one way to do it:
1. Leave FD alone. But as clubs, use FD as a way to introduce people to
contesting in a fun environment, as well as collect scouting reports on
the young blood.
2. Replace NR with a contest that has an operator training format. For
instance: two-op single-xmit teams, where one team member meets some
criteria for 'new contest operator' and where the NCO must make >50% of
the QSO's. Offer participation pins or whatever and a club trophy. The
theory is that you use the scouting reports from FD to pair up NCO's
with Elmers.
The time period between FD and SS works out nicely such that if the new
event could be slotted in between, it makes a nice three-step ladder.
1. generate interest at FD. Send out invitations to the Elmering event.
2. run the Elmering event. 1-on-1 coaching and full-bore contesting
(with multipliers)
3. help them plan strategy for SS and turn them loose.
Who knows, a club that did a good job of this might just steal the SS
gavel from the NCCC..... nahhhh
73, Dave NG0X
>From H. L. Serra" <hlserra@teetot.acusd.edu Thu May 25 07:27:52 1995
From: H. L. Serra" <hlserra@teetot.acusd.edu (H. L. Serra)
Subject: Propagation Data Sources
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9505242344.B8004-0100000@teetot.acusd.edu>
I thought I'd summarize sources of propagation data, which Trey will put
in FAQ for this reflector:
1. Propagation Reflector: Send "subscribe prop" in the body of message
to "prop-request@digimark.net" <Tks Joe K2YJL>
2. Use finger utility to obtain propagation and aurora as follows:
"finger solar@xi.uleth.ca"
"finger daily@xi.uleth.ca"
"finger aurora@xi.uleth.ca" <Tks Walt K2WK>
3. Propagation data and forecasts from the Space Environmental Lab are
available on the web at the following page:
http://www.sel.noaa.gov/radio/radio.html
4. Historical data on sunspot numbers, etc. is available from the
National Geophysical Data Center web page:
http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/ngdc.html <Tks Steve WD8IXE for 3 & 4>
73, Larry N6AZE
>From s50k@robo.fer.uni-lj.si (Marko Munih) Thu May 25 10:22:08 1995
From: s50k@robo.fer.uni-lj.si (Marko Munih) (Marko Munih)
Subject: WPX CW
I will be active as S50K on 160m SO HP. Please call if you will
heard me and be patient if QRM will stop me to copy your signal
immedeately.
Thanks in advance for Qso's
--
Marko, S57EK/S50K
>From Bill Turner <wrt@eskimo.com> Thu May 25 12:04:42 1995
From: Bill Turner <wrt@eskimo.com> (Bill Turner)
Subject: Results in QST
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.950525040047.15973I-100000@eskimo.com>
>From a position of enlightenment, George Cook wrote:
>
> Hey would that mean I should re label my Speech Processer <DYNAMIKE> ?
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Much too high tech.... sounds like a LOUDERMAKER to me. :-)
73, Bill W7LZP
|