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Re: [CQ-Contest] Driving at 4AM

To: "W0MU Mike Fatchett" <w0mu@w0mu.com>, "'Michael Coslo'" <mjc5@psu.edu>, "'CQ-Contest com'" <CQ-Contest@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] Driving at 4AM
From: <ve4xt@mts.net>
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 10:34:24 -0600
List-post: <cq-contest@contesting.com">mailto:cq-contest@contesting.com>
Hi all,
I have some specific responses to Mike's question below:
> From: "W0MU Mike Fatchett" <w0mu@w0mu.com>
> Date: 2009/02/09 Mon AM 10:09:01 CST
> To: "'Michael Coslo'" <mjc5@psu.edu>, 
>       "'CQ-Contest com'" <CQ-Contest@contesting.com>
> Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] Driving at 4AM
> And this entire conversation started with comments about a number of
> perennial top finishers sending in late, yes LATE logs.  Not logs at the
> deadline, past the deadline.
> There should probably be separate discussions of various sub plots that came
> out of this like:
> Should log deadlines be moved up

No. Sponsors want to receive as many logs as they can, from hard-core 
contesters AND casual contesters alike. 
Contests don't exist for contesters alone.

> Should logs be accepted after the deadline and qualify for placement, i.e.
> not checklog. 

Yes, to whatever extent the sponsor is willing to accommodate. It's not up to 
us to dictate to sponsors how to run their 

> Should sponsors publish the date the log was received

No. As has been pointed out, this information is entirely irrelevant. Since so 
many of you are so willing to attach 
automatic suspicion to a later log filing, as entirely groundless as that 
suspicion may be, I see no need to fan the 
flames of paranoia any further.

> If you are not cheating, I see no reason to get up in arms about it.

So, if you aren't breaking the law, you have no reason to get up in arms about 
unreasonable search and seizure?

To quote one of Mike, W0MU's favourite orators -- given his signature -- "Those 
who sacrifice liberty for security 
deserve neither."

If this really was going to curb cheating -- and I'm not convinced cheating is 
widespread enough to warrant -- I might 
feel a bit better about it. But as has been pointed out, cheaters will cheat 
irrespective of log deadlines. They'll just 
make sure to cheat more quickly. So all that will happen here is to bring 
contesting further into disrepute.

73, kelly

 Those that cheat will continue to do so, however I think we need to be diligent
> and attempting to identify and stop cheaters.  
> What I find amusing is that Power has been overlooked and passed off with a
> wink wink for as long as I can recall and that is a violation of our
> license.  Log massaging, rubber clocking, packet, skimmer, etc is not and
> gets far more attention.
> Mike W0MU
> "A slip of the foot you may soon recover, but a slip of the tongue you may
> never get over." Ben Franklin
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cq-contest-bounces@contesting.com
> [mailto:cq-contest-bounces@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Michael Coslo
> Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 8:11 AM
> To: CQ-Contest com
> Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] Driving at 4AM
> On Feb 6, 2009, at 12:48 PM, Doug Smith wrote:
> >
> > I have only been in a few contests and I generally have submitted my 
> > log near the deadline.  Why?
> >
> > 1) I didn't think it mattered when the log was submitted as long as it 
> > was before the deadline.
> While logs and police issues might be an interesting if flawed analogy, I
> just gotta say it.....
> Guys and gals, we really should ease up the paranoia business. If a log
> submitted near the deadline date deserves suspicion, extra checking because
> we think that people who submit their logs near the deadline are cheating,
> then we're starting down a path that ends up with demanding live internet
> logging during the contest, no exceptions. No connection? Tough - find
> something else to do that weekend.
> > Note that it doesn't equal "guilt".  Just additional scrutiny..
> Sigh.....
> If extra scrutiny is warranted, then why? Is there a shown correlation
> between submission date and cheating? Where is it, I'd love to see the
> cites.
> And of course, the thing that proves the actual silliness of the "people who
> submit near the deadline are cheating" hypothesis is that if that were the
> actual case, you can bet that anyone who is actually cheating is going to
> send in their logs early.
> > 2) At the end of a contest, I spend a few minutes writing my "after 
> > action"
> > report.  I'll read this next year before the next contest.  I'm hoping 
> > the refresher will help me do better next time.  Anyway, after writing 
> > the notes to myself, I shut the rig off and get back to reality.  
> > Submitting the log is just an administrative detail that can be 
> > attended to at any time.
> >
> > Now that I know (from this group) that it helps the log checkers if I 
> > submit early I'll submit my log as soon as I'm done with the contest.  
> > It helps them and doesn't hurt me so why not?
> If you send in your log right after the contest, that is great. If not, then
> any time up to the deadline is also fine.
> That there are advantages for the checkers is true - although not huge, the
> wish for early log submission is more one of temperament on the part of the
> person who gets to check the logs. As I noted in my original reply to Tree
> when he started the original topic, my wife has a similar outlook - she
> considers a half hour early to be a half hour late. We have truly showed up
> at places an hour early. I used to be that way myself, but over time, I
> found that it is not possible to change human nature.
> Quick rough stat:
> I get around half the logs for my particular venue in the first twelve hours
> after the contest.
> Another 20 percent in the first week.
> Another 20 percent the second and third week.
> Last 10 percent the last week.
> Mobiles tend to be later (not late) submissions, as there is a lot of extra
> work involved in a mobile entry.(in our case at least)
> But seriously, to assume that people who submit their logs later in the
> process are likely to be cheating,  and should be treated that way, is
> disingenuous at best. It is certainly insulting to the decent honest Ops who
> haven't done a thing wrong, yet are accused as likely cheaters, just by
> their submission date that is within contest guidelines.
> -73 de Mike N3LI -
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