You said "screen watcher". FT screen watching has a lot in common in common
with RTTY screen watching. And I listen to the FT signals, you can learn
things from the tonal quality. That and attention to the visual clues like
the waterfall present a lot of information to operator beyond the decoded
characters. 73 jeff wk6i
On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 3:36 PM Edward Sawyer <EdwardS@sbelectronics.com>
wrote:
> Jeff, Sorry for confusion. RTTY is not in question here. FT-X is the
> topic. I totally agree with you that the RTTY contester wearing headphones
> is in a totally informed mode to make logging decisions.
>
>
>
> Ed N1UR
>
>
>
> *From:* Jeff Stai [mailto:wk6i.jeff@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 15, 2020 6:35 PM
> *To:* Edward Sawyer
> *Cc:* Stan Zawrotny; Tim Shoppa; rjairam@gmail.com;
> cq-contest@contesting.com
> *Subject:* Re: [CQ-Contest] World Wide Digi DX Contest Results.
>
>
>
> I'm sorry my friend, you have clearly never understood how RTTY contesting
> works. We wear headphones for a reason. 73 jeff wk6i
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 3:21 PM Edward Sawyer <EdwardS@sbelectronics.com>
> wrote:
>
> Actually Stan. The decision that the operator makes to log or not is made
> based on what the computer is telling them what it thinks happened. Having
> no more information than that, a decision to log is made. The operator who
> is actually listening and processing the exchange of information can make
> an informed and experienced decision on such matters. A screen watcher
> cannot.
>
> So you are right, the operator makes the decision but unfortunately does
> not have the information required to do so on an accurate basis. The data
> (quip intended) speaks for itself.
>
> Ed N1UR
>
> From: Stan Zawrotny [mailto:k4sbz.stan@gmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2020 1:29 PM
> To: Edward Sawyer
> Cc: rjairam@gmail.com; Tim Shoppa; cq-contest@contesting.com
> Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] World Wide Digi DX Contest Results.
>
> Ed,
>
> >>Based on my decision only, no one elses, I hit enter and its logged.
> The person on the other end does the same. If the logged items match it’s
> a Q. Both computers could have suggested and autofilled something
> different and it doesn’t matter, because humans actually intervened and
> made it right.<<
>
> The exact same thing is true with FT8/4. Nothing is logged until the
> operator has made any corrections and instructs the computer to log it.
>
> You obviously are arguing about a process that you are not personally
> adept with. I think this tread needs to come to an end.
>
> Stan, K4SBZ
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 9:48 AM Edward Sawyer <EdwardS@sbelectronics.com
> <mailto:EdwardS@sbelectronics.com>> wrote:
> Actually, I completely disagree.
>
> When I am running stations on CW or SSB, I am listening to the station I
> hear and typing in what I hear. Yes, I see on the screen the SCP
> suggestions as well as any autofill suggestions. I can overwrite them at
> will, and often do – K5ZD is in zone 5 not Zone 4 – as an example – someone
> changed their power exchange since yesterday as another – the list goes on
> and on.
>
> Based on my decision only, no one elses, I hit enter and its logged. The
> person on the other end does the same. If the logged items match it’s a
> Q. Both computers could have suggested and autofilled something different
> and it doesn’t matter, because humans actually intervened and made it right.
>
> And funny enough, the NILs are way better with the above vs the sequencing
> of computers trying to match all the bits before they both say – it’s a
> good Q.
>
> Lets face facts. Ft-X is designed for weak signal DX – just ask the
> inventor – he’ll tell you. And its good at it too. But what makes it good
> is its willingness to repeat over and over the mundane looking for just the
> right S/N mix to confirm the Q. Great for low signal DXing, not so great
> for contesting.
>
> Sure sounds like a square peg trying to go through a round hole to me.
> But more power to those that find it enjoyable.
>
> Ed N1UR
>
> From: rjairam@gmail.com<mailto:rjairam@gmail.com> [mailto:
> rjairam@gmail.com<mailto:rjairam@gmail.com>]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2020 10:20 PM
> To: Edward Sawyer
> Cc: Tim Shoppa; cq-contest@contesting.com<mailto:cq-contest@contesting.com
> >
> Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] World Wide Digi DX Contest Results.
>
>
> In every contest the computer is running the show, because we do
> computerized logging, super check partial etc.
>
> In this case we have over dependence on auto sequence, which makes things
> more complicated rather than easier.
>
> Ria
> N2RJ
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 9:31 PM Edward Sawyer <EdwardS@sbelectronics.com
> <mailto:EdwardS@sbelectronics.com><mailto:EdwardS@sbelectronics.com
> <mailto:EdwardS@sbelectronics.com>>> wrote:
> Isn't the basic problem that the computer is running the show? On both
> ends. And the operator really is helpless to change that?
>
> It's a very basic statement about what is really happening with this mode.
>
> 73
>
> Ed N1UR
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: CQ-Contest [mailto:cq-contest-bounces+edwards<mailto:
> cq-contest-bounces%2Bedwards><mailto:cq-contest-bounces%2Bedwards<mailto:
> cq-contest-bounces%252Bedwards>>=sbelectronics.com@contesting.com<mailto:
> sbelectronics.com@contesting.com><mailto:sbelectronics.com@contesting.com
> <mailto:sbelectronics.com@contesting.com>>] On Behalf Of Tim Shoppa
> Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2020 9:13 AM
> To: cq-contest@contesting.com<mailto:cq-contest@contesting.com><mailto:
> cq-contest@contesting.com<mailto:cq-contest@contesting.com>>
> Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] World Wide Digi DX Contest Results.
>
> K4SBZ writes:
> > In any case, it is
> > the operator who makes the decision not to log the QSO. No QSOs are
> > automatically not logged. And the next action requires the operator to
> > manually select another callsign to call or send CQ. There is no chaining
> > of contacts.
> > The problem is that the operators have become so accustomed to the prompt
> > to log a QSO when 73 is sent that they think it is a requirement.
>
> I originally had some thoughts like you. Folks unfamiliar with logging
> details or imagining a requirement for a 73 might have been the source of
> most of the NIL's.
>
> Then I asked Ed to send me my LCR and I looked it over. Most of the NIL's
> given by me or given to me, were with other well-known multi-mode
> contesters, not with newbies. So there goes my theory that it was newbies
> racking up the NIL's.
>
> It just IS HARDER to figure out whether a QSO was complete or not on
> FT4/FT8. All the clues that even a beginning contester learns quickly, as
> to whether the QSO is complete, or not complete, are simply lacking in
> FT4/FT8. We make our best guess based on what the computer decodes or does
> not decode, maybe try an extra cycle or two to see if we can tease out the
> confirmation we are looking for, decide whether to log it or not, and
> compared to other modes, that guess is several times more fallible.
>
> And it wasn't just newbies. Even for very experienced multi mode
> contesters, that guess is several times more fallible in FT4/FT8 than for
> other modes.
>
> Adding extra confirmation steps on top of the existing confirmation steps?
> That'd just make the NIL rate worse because those are more opportunities
> for things to get lost in the noise and QRM!
>
> There are several contests out there (NAQP comes to mind but I'm sure there
> are others) where NIL's do not result in any penalty, just the loss of
> credit for that Q. I think the WW Digi organizers were wise to chose this
> approach in scoring.
>
> Tim N3QE
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>
>
> --
>
> Jeff Stai ~ WK6I ~ wk6i.jeff@gmail.com
>
> RTTY op at W7RN
>
> Twisted Oak Winery ~ http://www.twistedoak.com/
>
--
Jeff Stai ~ WK6I ~ wk6i.jeff@gmail.com
RTTY op at W7RN
Twisted Oak Winery ~ http://www.twistedoak.com/
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