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[TenTec] Fwd: Topband: More About Clix

To: <tentec@contesting.com>
Subject: [TenTec] Fwd: Topband: More About Clix
From: al_lorona@agilent.com (al_lorona@agilent.com)
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 22:48:29 -0700
In fact, you can. The instrument has to be able to capture a signal and show
you the signal's frequency vs. time. This type of plot is called a
"spectrogram" and can be found on instruments called Vector Signal
Analyzers.

The spectrogram is a little bit like the display you see on one of those
PSK-31 programs (e.g. DigiPan?) which scrolls. Therefore, the horizontal
axis is frequency and the vertical axis is time. Using markers, it is an
easy task to measure delta F and delta T. If the plot is a color plot, color
can be used to indicate amplitude.

This is the technique used to look at the transient turn-on behavior in the
first few milliseconds of a PLL powering up, and also is used by law
enforcement to positively ID a specific transmitter by its turn-on
"fingerprint". 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul Christensen [mailto:paulc@mediaone.net] 
> Sent: Tuesday, 29 January 2002 5:49 PM
> To: Steve Ellington; tentec@contesting.com; Duane A Calvin
> Subject: Re: [TenTec] Fwd: Topband: More About Clix
> 
> 
> You can't.  In fact, I know of no electronic instrument capable of
> reasonably detecting it.  Sometimes the ear is the best 
> judge.  The keyed
> waveform oscilloscope display has no association with frequency shift.
> 
> -Paul, W9AC
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steve Ellington" <n4lq@iglou.com>
> To: <tentec@contesting.com>; "Duane A Calvin" <ac5aa@juno.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 18:12 PM
> Subject: Re: [TenTec] Fwd: Topband: More About Clix
> 
> 
> > Since you brought it up;
> > Is there any test equipment that would show "microchirp"? 
> It's easy to
> hear
> > but how about viewing it on a scope?
> > Steve Ellington
> > N4LQ
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Duane A Calvin" <ac5aa@juno.com>
> > To: <tentec@contesting.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 12:21 PM
> > Subject: Re: [TenTec] Fwd: Topband: More About Clix
> >
> >
> > > Hmmm....   This doesn't match the ARRL/QST Labs results 
> as printed in
> > > their review of the VI+.  The keying waveshape was 
> textbook perfect.  In
> > > monitoring my own signal both in my shack and at a 
> friend's QTH about 10
> > > miles away, there are no discernable clicks.  (Yes there is the
> > > microchirp, which I consider a minor annoyance.)  So, has 
> something
> > > changed, or what's the real story?
> > >
> > >         73,  Duane
> > >
> > > On Tue, 29 Jan 2002 09:29:45 -0600 Ron Feutz 
> <feutz@wctc.net> writes:
> > > > How about this, guys?
> > > >
> > > > I have always been under the impression that my signal 
> was clean and
> > > > the
> > > > Yaesu guys were screwing up the bands.
> > > >
> > > > Ron - WA9IRV   Omni 6+
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >To: topband@contesting.com
> > > > >X-Mailer: Juno 5.0.33
> > > > >From: k6se@juno.com
> > > > >Subject: Topband: More About Clix
> > > > >Sender: topband-admin@contesting.com
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To: <tentec@contesting.com>
> > > > >Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 14:41:16 -0800
> > > > >
> > > > >Virtually all of today's modern rigs have a key click 
> problem.  The
> > > > stock
> > > > >FT-1000MP and Mk V CW signal rise time is 2.4 ms and 
> the fall time
> > > > is 1.0
> > > > >ms.  This is on every dit and dah.  The ARRL criteria 
> for "clean"
> > > > keying
> > > > >is a rise and fall time of 5.0 ms.  After the INRAD keying
> > > > improvment
> > > > >mod, the rise time is 4 ms and the fall time is 2.2 ms.  It
> > > > certainly
> > > > >improves the keying, but not enough, which is why I'm 
> going to do
> > > > the
> > > > >W8JI key click mod on my MP.
> > > > >
> > > > >A friend has an IC-756 PRO which has clicks extending 
> out at least
> > > > +/- 1
> > > > >kHz.  Another has a late-model IC-775DSP which has 
> clicks as bad or
> > > > worse
> > > > >than the FT-1000MP.  Additionally, you can hear a 
> "thump" on his
> > > > first
> > > > >dit or dah when he is operating split.  Earlier model 775s have
> > > > the
> > > > >additional problem of generating a signal from the receive VFO
> > > > when
> > > > >operating split (becoming worse as the split frequency 
> is smaller),
> > > > >clearly an FCC violation.  Icom knows about this 
> problem because
> > > > they
> > > > >will upgrade the early version if the owner complains, but they
> > > > won't
> > > > >publicly confirm this problem.
> > > > >
> > > > >Many topbanders prefer the Omni VI+ because of its superior QSK
> > > > and
> > > > >excellent receiver.  But even it has bad clicks.  
> INRAD has thus
> > > > far
> > > > >unsuccessfully tried to develop a mod to correct this.  George,
> > > > W2UVG
> > > > >(owner of INRAD) told me, "I have spent many hours 
> working on the
> > > > Omni
> > > > >VI+ keying and ALC loop as it has a similar problem.  
> The keying
> > > > waveform
> > > > >out of the first mixer is text book perfect, 5 mS up and down.
> > > > Then it
> > > > >goes through the ALC loop and the output has 1 mS rise 
> time and 5
> > > > mS fall
> > > > >time.  This loop has a very slow decay time, and it 
> doesn't change
> > > > the
> > > > >input shape.  If I disable the ALC loop the radio puts out 100
> > > > watts and
> > > > >the keying is perfect.  But there is no power control, etc."
> > > > >
> > > > >Jim, N7JW has overcome the Omni VI+ click problem by using an
> > > > FT-1000MP
> > > > >with the W8JI key click mod to transmit and an Omni 
> VI+ to receive.
> > > >  It
> > > > >would be nice if all hams (especially topband 
> contesters) were as
> > > > >concerned about having a clean CW signal as N7JW is.
> > > > >
> > > > >I'm not sure how the modern Kenwood radios are as far as clicks
> > > > go.
> > > > >
> > > > >73, de Earl, K6SE
> > > > >_______________________________________________
> > > > >Topband mailing list
> > > > >Topband@contesting.com
> > > > >http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/topband
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
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> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Duane Calvin, AC5AA
> > > Austin, Texas
> > > _______________________________________________
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> > >
> >
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