I know better than to mix up tubing and pipe  The pipe diameters were
approximated at 2 inches with the wall thickness given. If used actual
schedule 80 pipe the actual numbers would be changed slightly (exercise for
the student), but would not materially affect the results.
Sorry for the mixup  it was for illustration only.
Scott
KBOFHP
Original Message
From: towertalkbounces@contesting.com
[mailto:towertalkbounces@contesting.com]On Behalf Of NPAlex@aol.com
Sent: Friday, July 14, 2006 9:45 PM
To: towertalk@contesting.com
Subject: [TowerTalk] Clarification? Windloading  Chromemoly VS: steel
In reading through the exchanges below it appears that the term "Pipe" and
"tubing" may be intermixed in the discussion. I am sure most know that 2"
tubing (with a specified wall thickness) and 2" pipe (with a wall schedule
80 or
40 specified) are very different in outside diameter. See the following
chart 
Pipe Size Schedule 40 ** Schedule 80 **
(in)Nom.OD(in) ID(in) Wall Thick.(in) ID(in) Wall Thick.(in)
11/2 1.900 1.610 0.145 1.500 0.200
2 2.375 2.067 0.154 1.939 0.218
It is possible that "Tubing" uses a "schedule" dimension for wall
thickness,
but I am not aware of it.
So the question is  was the correct material definitions used in the
calculations e.g. pipe or tubing, and where the correct outer diameters and
wall
thickness's used?
Regardless, I agree with the conclusion that chromemoly 2" tubing is the
better choice.
Regards
Norm W4QN
==============================================================
Message: 8
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2006 14:46:08 +0000
From: kb0fhp@comcast.net
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Windloading  Chromemoly VS: steel
To: Mike <k4gmh@arrl.net>
Cc: towertalk@contesting.com
Now for a 20 foot mast, the max load (located at the tippytop of the mast)
is about 2850 pounds for the 4130, and about 1700 pounds for the black
steel
A53 Shedule 80 pipe. If I use a safety factor of 2  which I don't think
is
unreasonable, then the maximum loads are about 1425 pounds for AISI 4130,
and
about 850 pounds for the A53 Steel pipe.
This is where I need help. Now assuming the codes, how do I calculate the
windloading?. I know there was a long discussion on that a while ago 
which
I need to review. I really wish there was a chart  antenna loading in
ft^2
vs wind speed.......Does someone know of such a beast? SInce the worst
case
is a point load at the end of the mast  this could really help size the
necessary mast sizes.
As with all calculations, it is best to verify the calculations, and if
necessary contact the appropriate engineering or other cognizant
authority.....
Scott
 Original message 
From: Mike <k4gmh@arrl.net>
Thanks Scott for the clear and complete explanation of the difference.
Nice
to get a knowledgeable answer about mast material.
At 12:44 AM 7/14/2006, you wrote:
There are really two questions there combined into one question. Schedule
80 is a pipe wall thickness designation....It does not specify alloy 
there
are approximately 30+ alloy designations for pipe:
http://www.keytosteel.com/Articles/Art24.htm
But making it simple, it it is assumed that the material is standard black
steel pipe to ASTM 53, typical strength has a 52,000 psi yield. That would
be about 70,000 psi ultimate strength, and a hardness of about 79 Rockwell
B.
Normalized 4130 pipe, has a hardness of about Rockwell C 30, with an
ultimate tensile strength of about 130,000, and a yield strength
approximately of 110,000 psi.
Just based on strength, the 4130 is better. But our failure criterion is
bending, or plastic deformation. Now we have to compare the wall
thicknesses and the strength, so see which works better. This is where the
metallurgist, being the jackofalltrades, instantly transforms into a
stress engineer.
The maximum stress in a beam is given by s=Mc/I, where s is the stress, M
is
the moment, c is the distance of the outer fiber from the neutral axis, and
I is the moment of inertia.
I for a thin walled tube (good enough in this illustration) is: I =pi*t8r^3
Assuming a 2" diameter, the I for the two cases are:
4130 (2" dia. x 0.18" wall): 0.565
A53 (2" dia x 0.25" wall): 0.785
c is the fiber distance from the neutral axis, and is c = r + t/2 differs
for
each one because of the wall thickness:
4130 (2" dia. x 0.18" wall): 1.09
A53 (2" dia x 0.25" wall): 1.13
M is unknown, and is a function of the length of the mast, and the
windloading. For the purposes of this, the masts are the same length, and
the windloading is the same.
Failure is yielding of the material, or when the stress equals the yield
strength (less any safety factor  we will ignore that for the time being).
For the 4130 pipe, yield is 110,000 psi = s = Mc/I = 1.93M
For the A53 pipe, Yield is 50,000 psi = s = Mc/I = 1.44M
The max moment at failure can be calculated by rearranging:
for 4130 M = 110,000/1.93 = 56,994 ftlbs
for A53 M = 50,000/1.44 = 34,722 ftlbs
In other words, the 4130 can take about 1.64 times the moment than the A53
pipe, even with a thicker wall. Since the lengths of the mast are assumed
to be the same, then the 4130 can take 1.64 times the load that A53 can
before bending can occur, for this specific example, and specific material
conditions.
The next question is, is this strength necessary for the application? It
depends on the windload of the antennas, and the length of the mast. From
that calculation, and a suitable safety factor, the maximum antenna loading
for a specific mast can be determined.
I hope that this clarifies some things  finnaly I have been able to answer
someone's question and contribute, instead of just asking questions.....
:)
Scott MacKenzie, PhD
Metallurgist
KB0FHP
Original Message
From: towertalkbounces@contesting.com
[ mailto:towertalkbounces@contesting.com]On Behalf Of Mike Bragassa
Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2006 11:39 PM
To: towertalk@contesting.com
Subject: [TowerTalk] Chromemoly VS: steel
Importance: High
For you metallurgists in the group:
Re: 20 ft mast pipe
How does a 0.18 inch chromemoly pipe compare to a 0.25 inch schedule 80
pipe?
73, Mike, K5UO
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