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Re: [TowerTalk] Top Band 4 Square

Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Top Band 4 Square
From: K4SAV <>
Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2006 18:34:15 -0500
List-post: <>
I am not familiar with all the limitations of MMANA, since I mainly use 
EZNEC.  However, the procedure would be to include the towers into the 
model.  Use segments that approximate the diameter of the towers. Also 
include models of all the antennas on the towers. For this purpose, you 
don't have to do accurate models of the antennas, just do enough to 
approximate their top loading affect.  You may run into problems where 
large diameter segments intersect small diameter segments, and have to 
do some tapering.

The tricky part is modeling the wires that are exiting the tower.  If 
you do not have a good radial system attached to the bottom of the 
tower, the wires that exit at the bottom of the tower will heavily 
influence tower resonance. Modeling this is almost impossible.

If the tower has a good radial system, you can neglect the effect of the 
wires exiting the tower, assuming the wires are connected to the base of 
the tower as they should be. This can be modeled using a mininec ground 
and adding a series resistor at the base of the tower to simulate ground 
losses.  You can look up the value of this resistor from charts that 
have been published for ground losses versus number of radials.  Try the 
ARRL Antenna Book. I don't think that MMANA has a mininec ground option, 
so you will have to model the radials.  Also I'm sure MMANA will be 
running NEC2, so it will not properly calculate near field ground 
losses. It calculates something for near field losses, but it is far too 
optimistic.  So you will still have to manually add some resistive 
losses to correct for this inaccuracy. It calculates far field losses 
OK. The same situation exists for your 4 square elements, and the 160 
meter tee.

You have a sufficiently complex system, that everything should be 
included into the model so you can look for interactions. Be sure to 
include any conductive guy wires, or any vertical feedlines that are not 
taped to the tower.

A side note: When I have modeled systems such as this, in terms of the 
affects on four squares or any vertical directive arrays, I have found 
that there is always a significant interaction, even when the towers are 
not resonant near the frequency of interest. The effect of that much 
metal in close proximity is difficult to eliminate to an extent that 
does not significantly effect the F/B ratio.

Jerry, K4SAV

Adrian Rees (MW1LCR) wrote:

>Hi all
>First of all, many thanks for the extremely helpful advice you have all
>offered, both on and off list.
>After giving this some thought, I am going down the route of de-tuning the
>towers, and modelling the potential solution. At this point, the actual
>towers havn't been installed, although I have permission to install them.
>They MUST be in a square formation, but can be between 20 and 50 m apart.
>Each tower will support various Yagi's....So.....
>I am using MMANA to model a 4 Square on Topband, and need some help.
>Although I have a working 4 Square file that MMANA can use, I am puzzled how
>to model the effects of the metal supporting towers in MMANA.
>Now then, I plan on running a catenary wire (well rope) from the top of each
>tower to the next one. This will support a T aerial, fed against earth (or
>elevated radials). The vertical part of the T will be 80 feet, the remaining
>top part of the T will be about 40 Feet a side. This seems to work FB in
>Freespace in MMANA.
>What I need to do is to model the effects of the supporting towers. I am
>particularly interested in the effects on the radiation pattern / angle.
>The plan is to de-tune the towers with Gamma Rods with either Capacity or
>Inductive loading.
>Question is, how far do I de-tune them, given that an 80 M 4 Square is
>planned as well.
>Any help ?
>Adrian Rees MW1LCR
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