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Re: [TowerTalk] elevated radials vertical

To: <>
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] elevated radials vertical
From: "Tom McAlee" <>
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2007 17:56:39 -0400
List-post: <>
> Ground mounting has become popular not because it works better but because 
> DX engineering sells all sorts of neat accessory's to assist in ground 
> mounting.

I don't usually get involved in elevated-vs-ground radial system debates, 
but that comment is so rediculous I can't help myself.

While I don't have any DXE vertial accessories, I have a lot of their RX 
antenna accessories.  I've actually called them to order things and had them 
talk me out of it, offering suggestions for other things to try first.  They 
definately put my results ahead of their making a sale.

And, 3000' of wire in 120+ radials?  You didn't say if you were talking 
about 10m or 80m with your 6BTV, but for most of the bands it covers that 
means they weren't very long.  There is little point in putting down 120 
radials unless they're about 0.4 wavelengths long.  If they're only 0.25 
wavelength, you might as well keep it at 60 radials.  If they're shorter, 
even less.  In other words, the quantity wasn't gaining you much as that 
short length so it isn't surprising your results didn't show it.

In any case, I kind of like that people think their elevated systems work 
just as well.  It makes for less competition in the pileups.

Tom, NI1N

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <>
To: "Mike K9MI" <>; <>
Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 5:26 PM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] elevated radials vertical

> Mike K9MI wrote:
>> One of the new Generals in town has purchased a 30ft pushup mast, the 4 
>> band
>> Hustler trap vertical (around 21.5 ft) and wants someone to install this 
>> for
>> him with the mast bolted to a side of his house. Hustler shows elevating 
>> the
>> antenna similar to what he wants to do (actually he wants someone else to 
>> do
>> the work), with 2 radials for each of the 4 bands.
>> I've tried to get him to ground mount the vertical close to the center of
>> the backyard and put his radial system in the ground a few inches. He
>> doesn't think that is a very good idea. Where he wants to place the 
>> vertical
>> on the mast and, he will only have 180 degrees to work with in separating
>> the radials. I don't see that he has 8 places to tie them off to.
>> I've never used an elevated trap vertical. I don't know how critical the
>> length and tuning of the radials would be and how important it is that 
>> you
>> have 180 degree separation between radials of the same band. And is the
>> difference worth the hassle over  ground mounting with a decent radial
>> system?  Ground mounting is what I used as a novice with a 14 Avq (around 
>> 28
>> years ago) , and that seemed sufficient to me at the time.
>> I'd appreciate other opinions, and replying direct is fine.
> Your friend is much better off getting the hustler off the ground.
> Ground mounting is the latest fad but in reality ground mounting a
> trapped vertical is considered  a LAST RESORT!
> They really perform much better as roof mounted antennas and only need
> about 2 to 4 tuned radials per band..  In fact this is the preferred
> installation as ground mounting a trapped vertical is considered an
> absolute last resort.
> Consider this, if you ground mount the Hustler you will need to bury a
> minimum of 2000 feet of wire and even that won't compare to the
> performance he will see at 30 feet with just 2 radials per band. Trust
> me I know this from experience.
> In my experience if your elevated radials are only 4 to 10 feet off the
> ground then their not really elevated radials. Why bother elevating them
> you might as well bury them and get them out of the way.
> When I had my 6BTV roof mounted at 30 feet I started with about 4 tuned
> radials per band. I eventually increased that to about 120 radials. My
> poor roof looked like a spiderweb. Anyhow it made almost no difference
> whatsoever, and it was a heck of a of work for nothing.
> Now when we sold the house and moved, I could not roof mount the antenna
> so I ground mounted it. I once again started with about 4 radials per
> band but this time performance was dismal. I ended up burying close to
> 3000 feet of wire in about 120+ radials I lost track of how many are
> down there. But the difference in increasing the number of radials with
> ground mounted verticals is dramatic, But even with over 3000 feet of
> buried radials the performance is still way below what is was when it
> was roof mounted with only 4 radials per band.
> Ground mounting has become popular not because it works better but
> because DX engineering sells all sorts of neat accessory's to assist in
> ground mounting.
> 73
> _______________________________________________
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