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Re: [TowerTalk] Elevated vertical

Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Elevated vertical
From: "Mike Ryan" <>
Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2011 09:17:48 -0500
List-post: <">>
Gerald is correct here. I think one has to start with the feed line. IF
W7WHY wants his antenna resonant at 7.125 it might be in his best interest
to find out what the velocity factor is for his coax. Then, cut the cable to
have the swr the same at BOTH ends based on the freq and the velocity
factor. I am scratching my head but I think this works out to be even
multiples of 1/4 waves or something like that ( sorry, it's been too long
since I cared about this stuff). In that way, the swr will be the same at
the antenna end as it is at the transmitter end ( or should be), and if the
cable is cut to the correct length, it should be about flat.  Trouble is
when he then changes freq this will go away as the coax is then not cut for
a resonant freq. any longer. How much difference it will make is anyone's
guess. But this thread began I THINK with him saying he had swr of 1.5 and
1.7 etc.  I don't know what he is worrying about anyway. At hf freqs the
loss is pretty negligible. Merry Christmas all.

-----Original Message-----
[] On Behalf Of
Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2011 8:53 AM
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Elevated vertical

Hi Ken, the statement in the Antenna Book about the waves on the radiator  
bouncing back and forth and being reinforced by the next wave to achieve  
resonance is exactly right.
But, the point where one wave ends and the next one begins does not HAVE to 
 be located on the radiator proper. It can be somewhere down the feed line 
as  well.
And that is exactly the situation when a tuner is used to minimize vswr  
(same as resonating the system). The tuner is altering the phase of the 
incident  wave to make it and the reflected wave in phase and hence
Of course phase is not the only component in achieving a matched condition. 
 Amplitude has to be correct as well and that is done by adjusting the 
tuner L/C  to force the R to the needed value to have the correct amplitude
a match. We  don't even think about R and X when twisting the tuner knobs. 
Just watching the  vswr or watt meter for lowest reflected power (resonance)

makes the magic  happen.
Loss in the transmission line will alter the phase and amplitude values.  
The tuner then has to be adjusted further to compensate. Again, that is  
transparent when watching the reflected power/voltage and adjusting for
(resonance). It all happens without thought. 
We have all skipped right over the original question from W7WHY on his 40m  
vertical vswr vs frequency curve having double  dip. I have some insight on 
 that but will need some time to come up with a credible explanation.
Gerald K5GW
In a message dated 12/23/2011 8:39:05 P.M. Central Standard Time, writes:

Okay,  Gerald, I will agree that you and I are talking about different 
things.    But most people talk about adjusting their antenna and saying it
resonant  (or not) when they get a 1:1 SWR.  

As you have clarified, you are thinking of  "system resonance".  I'm 
talking "antenna resonance".   

Would you consider my 130' center fed dipole "resonant" on 60 or 30 m  
because the antenna tuner inside the rig can tune the  
antenna/twin-lead/balun/coax to a 1:1 SWR inside the rig?  Sorry to say  but
that one hurts my head 
to think of as "resonant".   Tuned? yes.  Matched?  Yes. Resonant?  No.

In the chapter on Antenna Fundamentals, my 10th edition Antenna Book  
describes "resonance in linear circuits" in regard to a wave traveling along
antenna to the end, bouncing back, and being reinforced by the next wave  
coming from the feedline.  It needs a specific length for that to happen:  
the standard  length=492/frequency (or a multiple.)

73, Ken WA8JXM 

On Dec 23, 2011, at 8:18 PM, _TexasRF@aol.com_ (  

Hi Ken, we have a differing definition of what constitutes resonance:  You 
are talking about the radiating element only and I am talking about the  
radiating element plus everything else that constitutes an antenna system;  
matching devices, coax etc.
Your example of .28 wavelengths does indeed move the R component to 50  
ohms but the +X that happens makes the vswr about 4 to 1 until the series  
capacitor is added. The series capacitor cancels the +x leaving only 50R. In
view and definition, that is a resonant system.
I "think" we may be saying the same thing but from differing  perspectives.
Gerald  K5GW


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