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Re: [TowerTalk] Coax

Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Coax
From: K8RI <>
Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2012 00:12:25 -0400
List-post: <">>
On 4/9/2012 12:01 AM, Jim Thomson wrote:
> Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2012 13:17:06 -0700
> From: Jim Brown<>
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Coax
> On 4/8/2012 10:46 AM, Bob Ad5vj wrote:
>> I bought off Ebay 100' of '400' 50ohm coax. Thinking it was LMR-400.
>> This has got to be the stiffiest, lightest weight, cheapest connector, crap 
>> i have laid my hands on.
>> Where can i buy REAL LMR400 coax?
> There's nothing magic about LMR400 that justifies its cost for operation
> on the HF bands. For use below 100 MHz, Davis 213 is as good, of good
> quality, and a lot less expensive.
> For more about coax, see the Q&A tutorial that's on my website.
> 73, Jim Brown K9YC
> ##  say what.   Run 200 feet  of 213-U   into a dummy load at the far end, 
> with a wattmeter 1 foot before the dummy load.
> Then  repeat the test, with LMR-400  or  LMR-400UF.    Stuff a 1 kw  CXR  
> into both of them on 29 mhz, then  see how
> much higher the wattmeter is with the LMR-400.   Then calculate the loss.
> ##  To do that test correctly, you require a 2nd wattmeter, on the output of 
> the amp.  They don’t even have to dead on accurate either, as long
> as they BOTH read the same, when installed nose to tail, a few inchs apart.   
> IE:  hook 2 x wattmeters nose to tail on output of amp....then into
> a dummy load.   Apply 1 kw cxr, and see what each one reads.   If one reads 
> 1000w..and the 2nd meter reads  say  965w  ..or  1045w, then
> note all that down....and factor it in when doing your calcs.   Also note 
> which wattmeter gets installed at the other end of the coax.
> ##  If using bird line sections,  you can use just one slug..and  move it 
> from one line section to the other.
> ##  I know, there is 20 other ways to calculate line loss, but the above is 
> the real deal.   A buddy once had just over 300 feet  of 213 u
> on his stacked 10m array.   With 1 kw applied in the shack, he got 335 watts  
> at the top of the 100 ft tall tower.   213 was replaced with
> .875 inch heliax.   Power went up to well over 900w  at top of the tower.  
> That was a real eye opener.
> ##  here’s what Times microwave shows on their on line calculator..for  100 
> foot of each type of cable @  29 mhz.
> LMR-1200DB     .205 db
> LMR-600db          .414 db
> LMR-600UF         .501 db
> LMR-400db          .666 db
> LMR-400UF          .799 db
> RG-213U             1.024 db
> And the above table is for only 100 feet.   If you have say 140 feet, then 
> multiply by 1.4  etc.   With 200 feet, your
> losses on 10m and above are sky high.    Dunno about you folks,  but I 
> measure the power at the ant, and also at the back
> of the amp.    You end  up with 3 x choices.  (a) increase the power output,  
> and-or replace amp with a much bigger one,
> like double the capacity.  (B)  obtain much bigger coax.    C   use a combo 
> of A+B
> To say there in no  difference between  213 u and LMR-400  below 100 mhz is a 
> bit of a stretch.   Not everyone can install a 100’  tower
> right out their back door either.   By the time you feed coax through 
> basement  or attic, crawl spaces, routing around the outside
> of a home,garage, etc, you have gone through a fair chunk already.   Then 
> over the base of the tower...which may well be  50-150’  away, then
> up  100’.     213-U..... no I don’t think so.   Sigs lost in the coax are 
> lost forever.

To get from either station to the top of the tower here is 228 feet. I 
switched to LMR-600 at $1.29 a foot.
I have a bunch of LMR400 and 600UF that I've found does not hold up well 
when out in the elements.
However, I'm looking at building a pair of motorized crank ups similar 
to to the big one they've been showing at Dayton. Don't know if I'll 
ever get them or even one of them done, but if the Deb sells and I have 
several guys looking at the Debonair, I'm gonna start and I'll be moving 
to 7/16-DIN connectors.  Those things are kinda pricey for LMR-600 or 
1200 UF and I'll be stuck with the UF versions if I go to crank ups.

I don't know if the big coax makes much difference on 75 but the 
resistive loss is much less on 160 compared to the RG-8 size cables.


Roger (K8RI)
> later... Jim   VE7RF
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