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Re: [TowerTalk] Tuning raised radial verticals

To: "Bob Shohet, KQ2M" <kq2m@kq2m.com>, "john@kk9a.com" <john@kk9a.com>, "towertalk@contesting.com" <towertalk@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Tuning raised radial verticals
From: Bryon Paul Veal NØAH <bryonveal@msn.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2017 05:22:36 +0000
List-post: <mailto:towertalk@contesting.com>
but with a comtek hybred coupler, you will never care aboit that 3%....plus 
the skin effect of wet radiators cause much bigger resonant changes that 
again,  the hybred couplers dummy load soaks up.... what are you people 
using to phase your arrays?

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On August 31, 2017 8:09:04 PM "Bob Shohet, KQ2M" <kq2m@kq2m.com> wrote:

> My understanding is the mutual coupling between the four 1/4 wavelength 
> verticals tends to raise the resonant frequency by ~ 5%, (that is what I 
> have read in numerous places), meaning that you want to start with by 
> cutting the 1/4 verticals for approximately 5% lower in freq. (longer) than 
> where you actually want it to resonate.   My actual experiences with 
> building multiple 4-squares on 40 and 80 is that the resonant freq. tends 
> to be raised by ~ 3 %, not 5%.  Furthermore, if you use pvc coated wire 
> like I do, that has the effect or lowering the resonant freq. by an 
> additional ~ 2%.
>
> So when I build or rebuild a 4-square, I cut the 1/4 wave elements for 
> about 5% below the “target” resonant freq. and then the array typically has 
> minimum reflected power (resonance) within ~ 1% of where I actually want it 
> to resonate.  I use 3 – 4 elevated radials per element.  I do not know 
> whether or not these resonant freq. shifts are the same or different with 
> elements near the ground and 30 – 60 ground mounted radials, or whether or 
> not there is a difference in resonant freq. shift with using a 4-square on 
> open ground without trees.  (I am in very dense forest).
>
> I suspect that terrain, forest vs. open field, and ground-mounted vs. 
> elevated radials, affect the amount of coupling between elements and the 
> freq. “shift” that one must take into account when cutting their elements.  
> It also goes without saying that most elevated 4-squares do NOT use a 
> “spider-web” of twine (box + “x”) to keep the adjacent and opposite element 
> spacing exact – differences in element spacing will likely affect the 
> resonant freq. shift as well as any differences in the lengths of the 75 
> ohm feedlines between the elements and phasing box.
>
> I suspect that often when a 4-square is “off” from where it is expected to 
> resonant, it is because either the element lengths, spacing and feedline 
> lengths are not exact – or there is something NON-equivalent in the coax 
> (Velocity factors can and often differ in the same cable at different 
> points within the same roll of coax! – which is why each feedline must be 
> measured first for physical length and then tuned for electrical length).
>
> 73
>
> Bob KQ2M
>
> From: john@kk9a.com
> Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2017 9:36 PM
> To: towertalk@contesting.com
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Tuning raised radial verticals
>
> What is the reason for making the verticals 4% long?  I am far from being a
> 4sq guru however it would seem that you should have a choke, especially with
> an elevated feedpoint. It is easy to make one using a short piece of RG-302
> and a few ferrites that will leave your phased feedline long enough to still
> reach the control box.
>
>
> John KK9A
>
>
> To: Bryon Paul Veal NØAH <bryonveal@msn.com>, Towertalk Reflector
> <towertalk@contesting.com>
> Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Tuning raised radial verticals
> From: Rudy Bakalov via TowerTalk <towertalk@contesting.com>
> Reply-to: Rudy Bakalov <r_bakalov@yahoo.com>
> Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2017 21:23:25 +0000 (UTC)
> List-post: <mailto:towertalk@contesting.com>
> I am measuring the impedance at the very base of the vertical with a
> calibrated
> RigExpert. According to DX Engineering the vertical should be connected
> without
> any baluns, matching networks...nothing. Furthermore, they are saying that
> the
> vertical should be resonant 4% of the target array frequency. That is, in my
>
> case, if I want to tune the array for 3.550 each individual vertical should
> be
> tuned for 3.413.
> Rudy N2WQFrom: Bryon Paul Veal NØAH <bryonveal@msn.com>To: Rudy Bakalov
> <r_bakalov@yahoo.com>; Towertalk Reflector <towertalk@contesting.com>Sent:
> Thursday, August 31, 2017, 4:34:40 PM EDTSubject: Re: [TowerTalk] Tuning
> raised
> radial verticals
> your seeing changes in the FEEDPOINT impedance using a tuned raised radial,
> thus your SWR will move  if yoy mess with them.  Suggest you consider using
> UnUns at the feedpoints to match the coax impedence to that of the
> verticals.  Also, a Comtek hybred coupler.....
>
> Sent with AquaMail for Android
> http://www.aqua-mail.com
>
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