Hi Paul and Marshall
There is no real dichotomy between Tilton's original description of a
contact and what contesters do. Tilton's rule dealt with really weak signals
where the participants are not sure of the other call or that the other
station is actually calling them. In Tilton's day that was even more of a
problem than it is today when a machine often copies the call and either it
is there or it is not there. It isn't a judgement call. So certainly for EME
or MS of either digital or analog mode, both calls, the report and an
acknowledgement is needed. And DURING that contact NO communication is
allowed except on the frequency where the contact is being made. That means
DURING the contact NO chat net, NO cell phone, NO liaison frequency like
talking on 432 while working on 5760. In a contest if and when signals are
really weak or really short, the same rules apply.
In a contest when signals are somewhat stronger, the procedure is
streamlined as Paul indicates. Both calls are given at some point though
almost never at the exact same time. Reports are exchanged. Acknowledgements
are given. Some DX stations go 5 minutes without giving their calls. I
consider that to be illegal from a contest standpoint. The very best HF
contesters give their call every time they call QRZ after making a contact.
As they should. Most Americans do likewise mainly because there is rarely a
pileup on them. And the vast majority of VHF contesters give their calls
somewhere during every contact [listen to K5TR sometime or K5QE or even K7CW
I should be so lucky to hear Paul].
If you are not sure that the other station is working you, you must ask. The
same if you are not sure of the report {grid}. And there are consequences if
you don't. If the other station is NOT working you and you log him, that
will generate an NIL [not in the log] flag in the log checking software. You
will not only lose the contact and the grid if it is a new grid but be
penalized in addition one or more contacts depending on the contest. This is
done to dissaude you from guessing.
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Kiesel [mailto:k7cw@yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2009 2:41 AM
To: VHF Contesting; Marshall Williams
Subject: Re: [VHFcontesting] Concerning Tilton's Rule
Hi Marshall,
I applaud you for your positive approaches to the betterment of VHF
contesting and operating in general.
I respectfully disagree with you regarding "what constitutes a VHF QSO."
As I mentioned while commenting on another thread today, I don't think that
we need to necessarily hold to Tilton's layout of what should constitute a
VHF QSO. Tilton certainly had his reasons for coming up with the structure
that he did and it made sense to have it that way then.
But this is 2009, not 1950. Virtually all transmitters use VOX now and the
bands are no longer filled with screaming heterodynes when the propagation
gets good. For most operating conditions, a streamlined operating procedure
makes sense.
Now, let's cut to the chase. FCC requires that you send your call at least
once during a QSO. If, during a contest QSO, you say your call and the other
station says his call, the FCC is fully satisfied that it's rules about
signing have been followed. (Longer QSOs require that each station signs at
least every 10 minutes and at the end of the QSO.) On SSB or CW, here is no
practical need to say the other station's call IF IT'S UNDERSTOOD THAT YOU
ARE CALLING HIM. (I apologize about the caps, but I don't have the use of
italics for email.) I can think of only one occasion where I had to ask if a
station was responding to me. We got it answered and continued. So, for
normal and contest QSOs, there is no need to follow Tilton's QSO
construction.
I do think that there should be exceptions to the above. The exceptions are
for meteor scatter and EME QSOs. The reason that regimentation in calling is
needed during these activities is that it isn't always clear that
information you copied is being sent to you. Also, operators know what the
expect to hear next if there is a specific structure to QSOs. This is
important when dealing with extremely weak or momentary signals. In these
two cases, I would continue to hold to the standards already set up for
meteor scatter and EME QSOs.
During contests, it just makes sense to get all NEEDED information across as
quickly as possible. Let's say you call CQ and another station responds.
Since you know that the other guy is calling you, why would you need to hear
him say your call? The answer is you don't need to hear it. It would be just
a waste of time for him to say it. All you need to hear is his call only!
This is one of the ways successful contesters operate. You keep is short and
move on.
So, to wrap it up. Legally, you need only send your own call. Beyond that,
contest rules state what is needed to be sent in the exchange. And that is
the way it needs to stay! There is no need at all to slow things down by
insisting on sending information that is already known!
So, instead of asking what should constitute a VHF QSO, we ought to be
asking why in the world do VHF QSOs have to be different? With the
exceptions that I mentioned above, they don't.
73,
Paul, K7CW
--- On Mon, 3/16/09, Marshall Williams <k5qe@sabinenet.com> wrote:
From: Marshall Williams <k5qe@sabinenet.com>
Subject: [VHFcontesting] Concerning Tilton's Rule
To: "VHF Contesting" <vhfcontesting@contesting.com>
Date: Monday, March 16, 2009, 7:30 PM
Hello again to the VHF contesters on the list....
A month or so ago when I posted my first thoughts on this, I made a point of
following a careful definition of what constitutes a valid VHF contact.
Ron, W4WA, has elicited several responses on this on this reflector on this
matter. It is clear that this idea needs to be revisited carefully. We
need to have a standard and we need to follow it. If the VHF community
wants to permit contacts like those done in HF contests, that is OK, we just
all need to be sure of exactly what is the correct procedure.
In the HF world, the following is accepted procedure:
ME: CQ CQ K5QE K5QE over
DX: W1XYZ
ME: W1XYZ EM31
DX: ROGER FN10 FN10 -- Sometimes this is just abreviated to FN10 FN10
ME: QRZ Contest from K5QE over
It is clear that several elements of Tilton's Rule for a valid VHF contact
are missing here. I never received my call from W1XYZ and he never received
a ROGER from me. If the abbreviated version of line 4 is employed, then I
never got a ROGER from the DX station.
A much better version of this is:
ME: CQ CQ K5QE K5QE over
DX: K5QE W1XYZ
ME: W1XYZ K5QE EM31
DX: ROGER FN10 FN10
ME: ROGER QRZ Contest from K5QE over (Variations: ROGER ROGER QRZ from
K5QE over and ROGER your FN10, QRZ from K5QE over)
Here, W1XYZ has given my call, and I have given him a ROGER. I believe that
the required elements are all here. W1XYZ his given both calls, a grid, and
a ROGER. I have given the same information. It looks like we have added
about 3 sec to the entiere contact time. I realize that when 6M is wide
open for hours and hours, this procedure will cause a few less contacts to
be made in an hour. There are some advantges here too....The DX station has
given my call and I have given my call as part of the exchange. That allows
other stations to know who I am and to get ready to work me. Don't you just
hate it when you hear an HF station running stations like crazy and he does
not give his call for a very long time(or that fact that he is actually
listening up 20KHz!!!).
I believe that this is the correct form for a VHF contact, but I am not
trying to "force" this particular version on anyone. What I believe we need
to do, is for the community to carefully consider this problem and to come
up with a "standard procedure" that we can all follow. We can
agree that the HF form is acceptable when 6M is wide open and you are
working stations like crazy. We can also agree that this form is not
acceptable on 2M and up where huge runs don't normally occur and things are
more "leisurely". We can agree that Tilton's Rule must be followed
carefully on schedules. We can agree on whatever we want as long as
everyone is on the same page.
Personally, I would like to see Tilton's Rule upheld. For historical and
practical reasons, it is a good definition of what constitutes a valid
contact. Tilton's Rule has served us well in the past. It is interesting
that the MS and EME folks(digital and CW) are VERY strict on these things.
If you don't get all the required elements, it is not a contact. ANECDOTE:
When I was in Oklahoma City in the late 70's, I had
49 states worked and was running with RI for my WAS. I thought that the
contact was complete and I called the other station on the phone after about
10 min of RRR, RRR, RRR. He told me that he did not have my ROGER and that
since we had talked on the phone, we would now have to start over. I was
heartbroken over this as the moon had gone beyond my window. I never got RI
from OKC and I still need that state for a non-digital WAS on 2M. For want
of a single R, my 2M WAS was lost--however, the guy on the other end was
just following the correct procedure. He did everything right--he just
needed a better set of ears...HI.
As on my previous posts, rational thoughtful comments are appreciated.
Flames -----> bit bucket. I must compliment everyone on their thoughtful
replies to the previous issues. Keep it up guys!!
73 Marshall K5QE
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