The TH628 is not a 200 kW HF tube. It has produced 1 MW continuous at 200 MHz.
At HF, or 35-60 MHz specifically for heating fusion reactions, 1.7 MW seems
achievable. No SW broadcaster (besides some filthy rich in the mid east) would
need such power in a transmitter.
As for the Eimac 8974 tetrode, I have couple of tubes at work, remains from a
finished project. They are very obsolete, as they have conventional wire grids
that limit screen dissipation in very high power apps. Also very big tubes, but
practically speaking are easily prone to high order parasites due to diameter
and lead inductance. The Eimac/CPI 4CM2500kg is a more comparable tetrode to
what I described, having been born from the shorter 8973 tetrode parent. As a
matter of fact, there will be a high power shoot out in a few years between the
Thales and Eimac bottles, as to which can best heat plasma for fusion reactor
for the ITER experiment.
All now have pyrolytic graphite grids as wire cannot withstand the heat, esp
with VSWR. Transistors don't stand a chance in this field of high power RF,
except as preamps.
73
John K5PRO
Sent from a Motorola Droid
amps-request@contesting.com wrote:
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>Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: testing the biggest one (Bill Turner)
> 2. Re: testing the biggest one (Jeff Blaine)
> 3. Re: testing the biggest one (donroden@hiwaay.net)
> 4. Shortwave Returns? [Was: testing the biggest one] (Jim Thomson)
> 5. testing the biggest one (Jim Thomson)
> 6. testing the biggest one (Jim Thomson)
> 7. Re: Shortwave Returns? [Was: testing the biggest one]
> (Fuqua, Bill L)
> 8. Re: Shortwave Returns? [Was: testing the biggest one]
> (Djordan (personal))
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Message: 1
>Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2013 19:23:03 -0700
>From: Bill Turner <dezrat1242@yahoo.com>
>To: Amps <amps@contesting.com>
>Subject: Re: [Amps] testing the biggest one
>Message-ID: <54qov8ps3lmc3cipclrcii76o3477h7io0@4ax.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
>ORIGINAL MESSAGE: (may be snipped)
>
>On Fri, 02 Aug 2013 20:25:35 -0400, KD4E wrote:
>
>>Decentralized critical-system redundancy is good.
>
>REPLY:
>
>We're getting way off the original subject here. The question was whether or
>not the world needs 200 kW transmitting tubes. My point was the internet
>together with low power WiFi and streaming content is gradually putting high
>power broadcast stations out of business. I would think within a generation
>nearly all of them will be gone.
>
>73, Bill W6WRT
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 2
>Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2013 21:27:49 -0500
>From: "Jeff Blaine" <keepwalking188@yahoo.com>
>To: "Mike Manship" <mjmanship@iquest.net>, <amps@contesting.com>
>Subject: Re: [Amps] testing the biggest one
>Message-ID: <3976CAB1A0CD45F0B0B7152B52362D2E@w520>
>Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=response
>
>Jim may have one of those on-line now.
>
>73/jeff/ac0c
>www.ac0c.com
>alpha-charlie-zero-charlie
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Mike Manship
>Sent: Friday, August 02, 2013 7:13 PM
>To: amps@contesting.com
>Subject: Re: [Amps] testing the biggest one
>
>Whatever happened to the X-2159?
>
>http://www.cpii.com/docs/datasheets/81/8974.pdf
>
>73 de Mike W9OJ
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>On 8/2/2013 3:09 PM, John Lyles wrote:
>> I just concluded 3 days of observing the final testing of a new tetrode in
>> the French Thales (former Thomson) factory. I can say with first hand
>> experience that tubes will be around for a long time, at least at the
>> power levels that make sense for them. I'm not talking about broadcast or
>> even communication levels, but for industrial and scientific sources. This
>> posting may not be directly applicable to amateur amplifiers, but to
>> amplifier technology in general. On Monday the TH628 ran 600 kW key down.
>> That's with plate power of 12.2 kV Ep at 85 amps! This was up at 200 MHz.
>> In an amplifier smaller than the car I drive. I'd love to know of any
>> other technology capable of this at comparable size, cost and efficiency.
>> The perfection of the art and skill of making thermionic devices is
>> evident here. "Awesome" is all I can think..
>>
>> On Tuesday, the same amp ran up to 3 MW pulsed with 26 kV at 175 amps
>> plate current very linearly, 66% efficient and> 14 db gain in grounded
>> grid(s) configuration.
>>
>> It gets shipped to us in USA for further testing in our PA in the
>> southwest. There will be 2 more like this in coming months to test and
>> install. I'm happy to be back home but have to say that time in a big tube
>> factory dispels any notions that I continuously hear on this forum and
>> other places (broadcasters or scientists) that tubes are gone, going,&
>> dead end now. I challenge the same pundits to come up with a superior way
>> to generate RF power. Maybe in the sun?
>>
>> Sorry that this isn't directly applicable to our ham discussions here but
>> as amplifier builders it is more than of "academic interest", being real
>> hardware.
>> 73 K5PRO
>> _______________________________________________
>> Amps mailing list
>> Amps@contesting.com
>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/amps
>>
>>
>_______________________________________________
>Amps mailing list
>Amps@contesting.com
>http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/amps
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 3
>Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2013 21:58:58 -0500
>From: donroden@hiwaay.net
>To: amps@contesting.com
>Subject: Re: [Amps] testing the biggest one
>Message-ID: <20130802215858.186112cbfokthuk2@webmail.hiwaay.net>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes";
> format="flowed"
>
>Quoting John Lyles <jtml@losalamos.com>:
>> On Monday the TH628 ran 600 kW key down. That's with plate power of
>> 12.2 kV Ep at 85 amps! This was up at 200 MHz.
>
>EME with a single dipole !!!!
>
>Don W4DNR
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 4
>Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2013 20:23:10 -0700
>From: "Jim Thomson" <jim.thom@telus.net>
>To: <amps@contesting.com>
>Subject: [Amps] Shortwave Returns? [Was: testing the biggest one]
>Message-ID: <40A8889985D142CBB27BBE4FC8DFA535@JimPC>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
>Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2013 21:38:04 -0400
>From: "Carl" <km1h@jeremy.mv.com>
>To: <qrv@kd4e.com>, <amps@contesting.com>
>Subject: Re: [Amps] Shortwave Returns? [Was: testing the biggest one]
>
>
>Pirate radio is alive and well on the AMBCB, FM and SW.
>The FCC doesnt have the money to do much unless they QRM a licensed station.
>The pulled a raid in Boston recently....all Hispanic pirates....I wonder if
>they had Immigration with them (-; Yeah sure!
>
>Many of those bible thumper SW stations will lease time to anybody with
>money.
>
>Carl
>KM1H
>
>## check out the various sites on the internet for pirate radio equipment.
>Everything from 1 watt up to 1 kw...and more with combiners. They also list
>the LP filters to go with the above equipment. If the TX is say 89 mhz, the
>LP cutoff
>will be 95 mhz. It?s a hoot really. They also sell all the usual audio
>gear to go with it,
>like peak limiters, compressors, mixing boards, mic mixers, etc. Then all
>the ants
>cut for what ever freq you want. Then various upgrades from mono to stereo.
>It would be hard to track down if it was a mobile setup.
>
>You are correct, a lot of SW stations will lease air time..and you supply the
>programming. Now all you gotta do is lease it for the entire contest weekend,
>and get em to tweak the ants for the ham bands. Just add a TR relay to the
>mess, and you are set.. or use a remote RX for full duplex. SW already
>has 3900-4000 as a SW band...and ditto with 7200-7400, 15.100 band,
>etc.
>
>Jim VE7RF
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 5
>Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2013 21:02:09 -0700
>From: "Jim Thomson" <jim.thom@telus.net>
>To: <amps@contesting.com>
>Subject: [Amps] testing the biggest one
>Message-ID: <85A8E377A7CE4767BA33F91DE4289C2A@JimPC>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2013 19:30:07 -0400
>From: "Roger (K8RI)" <k8ri@rogerhalstead.com>
>To: amps@contesting.com
>Subject: Re: [Amps] testing the biggest one
>On 8/2/2013 5:20 PM, Bill Turner wrote:
>> ORIGINAL MESSAGE: (may be snipped)
>>
>> On Fri, 2 Aug 2013 13:09:56 -0600, K5PRO wrote:
>>
>>> . I challenge the same pundits to come up with a superior way to generate
>>> RF power. Maybe in the sun?
>>
>> REPLY:
>>
>> How about the Internet? Seriously, the days of super power broadcast
>> transmitters are coming to a close. WiFi or its equivalent and streaming
>> content are spelling the doom of broadcasting as we have known it for
>> decades. We're not there yet, it is on the horizon.
>>
>
>The Internet is too fragile and is at the mercy of the weather and man
>made disasters. While it is working it's great, but nature or vandals
>could take out large portions. We depend on our ISPs, they depend on
>the trunklines.
>
>73
>
>Roger (K8RI)
>
>## dream on. You have no idea how much redundant fiber optic there is out
>there
>right now. The problem is, the typ cable may have 200 strands in
>it..including the
>spares ! City crew digs for a pipe, and poof, slices the fots cable in
>half..... taking
>out the spares as well. Plan B cane out in 1986. Fiber rings all over
>town, like
>concentric circles. Everything is connected to everything else, including the
>capability of going either CW or CCW on any given fiber ring. The rings
>are connected to each other too. Cable gets chopped, no big deal, it all
>takes
>an alternative path.
>
>## as far as splicing fiber back together....even that is down to a fine art.
>B4 I retired at
>the end of 2009, the telcos were splicing em, 13 at a time. Hit the switch,
>bam done...
>then the next 13 and so on and so forth. 200 strands of fiber in a 1.5 inch
>OD cable
>gets spliced pretty quick vs 900 pairs of twisted copper.. 1800 x
>conductors. You can
>now stuff up to 3000 gigabits on just one strand, so there is plenty of
>capacity.
>
>## still, there is limitations between towns. Unless you have redundant
>cables on BOTH
>sides of the hwy, you could be in trouble... but again, splicing cables is
>pretty quick.
>SW broadcasting, why bother ? They all missed the boat when they decided to
>experiment
>with digital vs SSB. One of the SW broadcasters did this experiment just a
>few yrs back,where
>they switched every few mins from 10 kw USB to 100 kw AM cxr. Several hundred
>listeners
>e-mailed back that USB trumps AM hands down. Digital is fubar, no
>handshaking capability,
>plus digital eats up way to much RF BW.
>
>## why would I want to listen to radio china on 3925 USB at 30 over S9, when
>I can listen to the
>same crap on their website ? Heck, SW is in real time. I can pull up old
>broadcasts from weeks
>previous on the net. Having said all that, SW broadcasters want even more BW
>these days, not less.
>
>end of rant....... Jim VE7RF
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 6
>Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2013 21:24:40 -0700
>From: "Jim Thomson" <jim.thom@telus.net>
>To: <amps@contesting.com>
>Subject: [Amps] testing the biggest one
>Message-ID: <A600E67BDADE4A78AD43DBE87BE59B98@JimPC>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
>Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2013 13:09:56 -0600
>From: "John Lyles" <jtml@losalamos.com>
>To: amps@contesting.com
>Subject: [Amps] testing the biggest one
>
>I just concluded 3 days of observing the final testing of a new tetrode in the
>French Thales (former Thomson) factory. I can say with first hand experience
>that tubes will be around for a long time, at least at the power levels that
>make sense for them. I'm not talking about broadcast or even communication
>levels, but for industrial and scientific sources. This posting may not be
>directly applicable to amateur amplifiers, but to amplifier technology in
>general. On Monday the TH628 ran 600 kW key down. That's with plate power of
>12.2 kV Ep at 85 amps! This was up at 200 MHz. In an amplifier smaller than
>the car I drive. I'd love to know of any other technology capable of this at
>comparable size, cost and efficiency. The perfection of the art and skill of
>making thermionic devices is evident here. "Awesome" is all I can think..
>
>On Tuesday, the same amp ran up to 3 MW pulsed with 26 kV at 175 amps plate
>current very linearly, 66% efficient and > 14 db gain in grounded grid(s)
>configuration.
>
>It gets shipped to us in USA for further testing in our PA in the southwest.
>There will be 2 more like this in coming months to test and install. I'm happy
>to be back home but have to say that time in a big tube factory dispels any
>notions that I continuously hear on this forum and other places (broadcasters
>or scientists) that tubes are gone, going, & dead end now. I challenge the
>same pundits to come up with a superior way to generate RF power. Maybe in the
>sun?
>
>Sorry that this isn't directly applicable to our ham discussions here but as
>amplifier builders it is more than of "academic interest", being real
>hardware.
>73 K5PRO
>
>## Superb. That must have been an exciting.. out of town assignment. I
>challenge anybody to build a SS 10 kw 160-10m amp for less than a 10 kw tube
>amp. I say it can?t be done. Even using a mess of those freescale devices,
>the maths just don?t add up. By the time you add on the various LP filters,
>and droves of combiners, switching supplies, plus a 10 kw auto tuner that will
>handle swrs up to say 3:1 both the cost, and parts count is through the
>roof.
>The HV supply for a tube amp is dead simple. RF deck is just one tube, no
>socket, simple tuned input. 2 x surplus vac caps for tune + load. Half inch
>cu tubing is still dirt cheap at home depot.
>Even a 10 kw FM broadcast TX.... in tube version from energy onix is cheaper
>than a 10 kw SS version..which typ uses 10 x 1 kw modules and the usual mess
>of combiners.
>
>Jim VE7RF
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 7
>Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2013 06:22:35 +0000
>From: "Fuqua, Bill L" <wlfuqu00@uky.edu>
>To: "qrv@kd4e.com" <qrv@kd4e.com>, "amps@contesting.com"
> <amps@contesting.com>
>Subject: Re: [Amps] Shortwave Returns? [Was: testing the biggest one]
>Message-ID:
> <B7E8B5B4A202074084E2515A7B10A7F32D64CF6D@ex10mb02.ad.uky.edu>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Shortwave has some advantages over other frequencies, such as AM or FM
> broadcast bands.
>One is that it penetrates rain forest and jungle foliage and the others can't.
>Also it has a large coverage area than they do. People in third world
>countries can
>use a cheap shortwave receiver to get news from all over. They don't need a
>computer
>or internet either just to get news and entertainment.
>
>73
>Bill wa4lav
>
>________________________________________
>From: Amps [amps-bounces@contesting.com] on behalf of qrv@kd4e.com
>[qrv@kd4e.com]
>Sent: Friday, August 02, 2013 7:47 PM
>To: amps@contesting.com
>Subject: Re: [Amps] Shortwave Returns? [Was: testing the biggest one]
>
>Given the rush to government-censorship of freedom of speech all
>across the world the era of independent Shortwave transmitters
>should be returning.
>
>How hard is it to get a license to broadcast on Shortwave, or
>perhaps to assume the license of one that has shut down?
>
>
>>>> . I challenge the same pundits to come up with a superior way to
>>>> generate RF power. Maybe in the sun?
>>>
>>> REPLY:
>>>
>>> How about the Internet? Seriously, the days of super power broadcast
>>> transmitters are coming to a close. WiFi or its equivalent and streaming
>>> content are spelling the doom of broadcasting as we have known it for
>>> decades. We're not there yet, it is on the horizon.
>>>
>>
>> The Internet is too fragile and is at the mercy of the weather and man
>> made disasters. While it is working it's great, but nature or vandals
>> could take out large portions. We depend on our ISPs, they depend on
>> the trunklines.
>>
>> 73
>>
>> Roger (K8RI)
>
>
>
>--
>
>Thanks! & 73, KD4E.com
>
>David Colburn - Nevils, Georgia USA
>
>Search with: duckduckgo.com
>
>Android for Hams: groups.yahoo.com/group/hamdroid
>Creative Tech: groups.yahoo.com/group/ham-macguyver
>Raspi Alternative: groups.yahoo.com/group/beagleboneblack/
>
>Restored to design-spec at Heaven's gate 1Cor15:22
>_______________________________________________
>Amps mailing list
>Amps@contesting.com
>http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/amps
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 8
>Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2013 07:08:05 -0700
>From: "Djordan (personal)" <wa3gin@comcast.net>
>To: "Fuqua, Bill L" <wlfuqu00@uky.edu>
>Cc: "amps@contesting.com" <amps@contesting.com>
>Subject: Re: [Amps] Shortwave Returns? [Was: testing the biggest one]
>Message-ID: <CBD422CD-7950-4623-8AC1-D679910AC5FB@comcast.net>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
>Huh?
>
>The historic super power stations we either gov owned or subsidized. BBC thru
>the VOA!
>
>The VOA went to low power regional HF to better target locations of
>interest...content is delivered by satellite.
>
>The Internet is/has replaced most of the old sat and microwave links in
>developed nations. Reliability is very good. It's all going to be digital over
>fiber to RF sources like cell towers or AM/FM remote control pods. Have you
>watched over the air TV lately? It's ,on its last phase of evolution and then
>it's gone and those freqs will become CELLS com and PUBLIC SAFETY channels.
>When the baby boomers are all gone so will be OTATV.
>
>Censorship??? Guess it depends what country you live in but in most of the
>developed world freedom of speech is doing so well it's embarrassing at
>times... Just watch the Tonight Show or FOX or HBO's Newsline or NETFLICKS
>award winning first effort at depicting operations at the US Capital...
>Clearly censorship has no home in AMERICAN TV.
>
>With the cost of energy superpower HF stations are history! You will need the
>Internet to research them and enjoy the pics from the old days... Where I
>live we still have three towers used over 100 years ago to broadcast from USA
>east coast to Europe. We had to petition to keep them from being knocked down
>for scrap...they are now historically preserved, for the time being. The
>evolution of technology marches forward, it doesn't bend backwards for blips
>of political unrest or mis-perceptions of the under educated and those on the
>third world. technology eventually reaches everyone at varying degrees of
>performance.
>
>Yesterday I flew across the USA... I had continuos Internet access from the
>Boeing 737. I brought up my Internet Remote Ham Station and operated from the
>my seat while flying at 39,000 ft. Pretty amazing!
>
>73,
>Dave
>Wa3gin
>
>
>P.S. I wouldn't spend a second trying to get a Short Wave Broadcast
>license... It would be very expensive and even if you were to succeed one
>indecent idiot that didn't like your point of view could destroy you station
>with much less effort then it took to build and license. You would serve you
>passion better becoming a grand success at some skill or trade, make lots of
>money and use that money to influence you region, better yet find others of
>like mind and form a coalition to promote the change you think is
>necessary...the days of broadcasting what you think is the truth of truths are
>over...that's just in movie and those guys get killed fast!
>
>Sent from my iPad
>
>Be Prepared Stay Prepared
>
>On Aug 2, 2013, at 11:22 PM, "Fuqua, Bill L" <wlfuqu00@uky.edu> wrote:
>
>> Shortwave has some advantages over other frequencies, such as AM or FM
>> broadcast bands.
>> One is that it penetrates rain forest and jungle foliage and the others
>> can't.
>> Also it has a large coverage area than they do. People in third world
>> countries can
>> use a cheap shortwave receiver to get news from all over. They don't need a
>> computer
>> or internet either just to get news and entertainment.
>>
>> 73
>> Bill wa4lav
>>
>> ________________________________________
>> From: Amps [amps-bounces@contesting.com] on behalf of qrv@kd4e.com
>> [qrv@kd4e.com]
>> Sent: Friday, August 02, 2013 7:47 PM
>> To: amps@contesting.com
>> Subject: Re: [Amps] Shortwave Returns? [Was: testing the biggest one]
>>
>> Given the rush to government-censorship of freedom of speech all
>> across the world the era of independent Shortwave transmitters
>> should be returning.
>>
>> How hard is it to get a license to broadcast on Shortwave, or
>> perhaps to assume the license of one that has shut down?
>>
>>
>>>>> . I challenge the same pundits to come up with a superior way to
>>>>> generate RF power. Maybe in the sun?
>>>>
>>>> REPLY:
>>>>
>>>> How about the Internet? Seriously, the days of super power broadcast
>>>> transmitters are coming to a close. WiFi or its equivalent and streaming
>>>> content are spelling the doom of broadcasting as we have known it for
>>>> decades. We're not there yet, it is on the horizon.
>>>
>>> The Internet is too fragile and is at the mercy of the weather and man
>>> made disasters. While it is working it's great, but nature or vandals
>>> could take out large portions. We depend on our ISPs, they depend on
>>> the trunklines.
>>>
>>> 73
>>>
>>> Roger (K8RI)
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Thanks! & 73, KD4E.com
>>
>> David Colburn - Nevils, Georgia USA
>>
>> Search with: duckduckgo.com
>>
>> Android for Hams: groups.yahoo.com/group/hamdroid
>> Creative Tech: groups.yahoo.com/group/ham-macguyver
>> Raspi Alternative: groups.yahoo.com/group/beagleboneblack/
>>
>> Restored to design-spec at Heaven's gate 1Cor15:22
>> _______________________________________________
>> Amps mailing list
>> Amps@contesting.com
>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/amps
>> _______________________________________________
>> Amps mailing list
>> Amps@contesting.com
>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/amps
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Subject: Digest Footer
>
>_______________________________________________
>Amps mailing list
>Amps@contesting.com
>http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/amps
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>End of Amps Digest, Vol 128, Issue 4
>************************************
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