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[RFI] Radar Engineers Model 251 Parabolic dimensions?

To: "rfi@contesting.com" <rfi@contesting.com>
Subject: [RFI] Radar Engineers Model 251 Parabolic dimensions?
From: Charlie Delta via RFI <rfi@contesting.com>
Reply-to: Charlie Delta <vk3od@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 8 May 2021 23:34:30 +0000 (UTC)
List-post: <mailto:rfi@contesting.com>
Thanks to all that replied.
1. Midnight sciences have closed down W0xi has retired and no longer sells kits 
or dishes.
2. I appreciate all the suggestions for a parabolic dish source. However I more 
interested in spending money on a true parabolic shape with the right F/D 
ratio. Its a fruitless exercise building good electronics on an imperfect dish  
geometry platform

3. I have gone down the road of trying, wok lids, Skylight domes, Cake display 
stands, salad bowls, Sony parabolic dish, and all sorts of  odd objects that 
have a half decent parabolic shape. Sure it  works however range and 
sensitivity wont get near a Radar Engineers or even a MFJ5008. Even the ARRL 
review of the MFJ5008 mentioned that the Radar engineers had a detection range 
of in excess of 200 ft whereas the MFJ  units range was in the 100 to 150 ft 
range. Other professional  dishes by companies like SDT and Sonaphone in 
Germany have  stated specifications of 50 to 100ft for electrical airborne 
dischare detection.  Even the Super Fluke ii910  that costs 30,000 dollars has 
a range of 70 meters.

4. I used a weak signal Sparak source which was an iridium spark plug and my 
Associated Reseach 15KV Hypot to generate a test signal. If the signal is 
strong enough any scrap dish will hear it, even with a funnel as a dish! 
However when you want to hear a weak signal then the whole setup becomes 
important and the dish design becomes critical to the success of detection. 
Sounds a lot like ham radio and having the right antenna!

5. What is clear is that  anything parabolic in shape works however the 
sensitivity and directivity  varies a lot to the point of causing  frustration.
6. Symptoms  include weak  signal detection,   washed out signal detection 
ability  and off axis  sidelobes which make the device usesless for pin 
pointing.
So with all of the above in mind I wanted a fresh start  by 1st building a 
proper dish. There are a number of parabolic dish sources availableI am more 
interested in experimenting by trying to building something that works. After 
shippings costs and paying the high prices in US dollars its really cheaper for 
me to get something molded locally by a plastic molding specialists who do this 
kind of thing everyday.
7. For those wanting  a really good dish thats optimum you can buy one from 
Wildtronics. There webpage has some excellent information on parabolic dish 
design which I used as a reference. http://www.wildtronics.com There is another 
company on Italy called Dodotronic that makes nice ultrasonic mic's and also 
sells optimum parabolic dishes.

8. I have 2 X Sony Parabolic mics 330 and 400 models which are 33 cm and 40cm's 
in diameter. These have a far from optimum FD  ratio and work no better than 
random junk dishes. Most parabolic mic's on the market   have poor dish designs 
and only the specialist wildlife people have taken care with the design 
paramters(Telinga and Wildtronics)

9. If someone does have access to the Model 251 and if they could measure the 
dish depth and focal point since this would give us the optimum dimensions for 
the correct size dish for 40khz frequency and with the correct F/D ratio.
10. Every time that you drop the dish size by 10 cm in diamter the gain drops 
6db according to the research. This suggests that the radar engineer size of 18 
inches  or about 50cm is close to optimum.  A 60cm dish would be even 
better.11. The critical part is the illumination of the Mic or transducer and 
this is where building a proper parabolic dish with the right  FD ratio and 
focal point will reap rewards.

If all else fails I will sell the house and buy a Fluke ii910.
73CraigVK3OD





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