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Re: Topband: ground characteristics

To: "Bob Kupps" <n6bk@yahoo.com>, "topband" <topband@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: Topband: ground characteristics
From: "Tom W8JI" <w8ji@w8ji.com>
Reply-to: Tom W8JI <w8ji@w8ji.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2012 09:11:19 -0400
List-post: <topband@contesting.com">mailto:topband@contesting.com>
Hi I have no idea if it is a fact but on page 9-18 in ON4UNs book it is stated without any further explanation -

"It is impossible to make a direct measurement of ground characteristics".>>>

I know we get a lot of vocal authoritative definite answers on many esoteric things, including this, but I think we should all be very careful to use some common sense and caution. Everyone took off with Sevik's method at 60 Hz, and it had very little correlation to what actually happens at higher frequencies. There is a chance we might be repeating that process. I have not been able to find any verification such a method works reliably. As a matter of fact, everything I read generally comes with cautions that pretty much say it is better than nothing.

There is good reason to question whether sticking probes a foot or two into the ground just a small distance apart results in anything meaningful when skin depth is many meters.

When I found N6LF's papers, I see he gives some cautions and also the only verification seems to be that one method using shallow probes roughly agrees with a slightly different method using probes. This really, if we think about it, is not verification at all.

The major problems that concern me are probe to soil contact and soil resistance and dielectric in the disturbed area where the probe(s) is inserted, and the fact we are not measuring anything but the very top layer. The top foot or so might be great on VHF, but if soil in non-homogeneous through the skin depth of many meters I don't see what anyone hopes to learn with a top sample.

As a matter of fact, N6LF suggests digging down and repeating measurements.

I wouldn't put much value on what goes on in the first foot or two on 160 meters, unless moisture and soil remains the same for 50 feet down or the soil is exceptionally high conductivity. I agree with ON4UN. I think his statement is accurate. Let's not mistake forcefulness with logical, because even N6LF includes cautions.

If there is reasonable verification anywhere, where is it? Verification of a method is not checking two very similar methods against each other, as we all should know.

73 Tom
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