look at this160m-balloon-antenna
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160m-balloon-antenna
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---------------------Greg ChartrandRichland, WA.
On Monday, November 8, 2021, 03:03:33 PM PST,
topband-request@contesting.com <topband-request@contesting.com> wrote:
Send Topband mailing list submissions to
topband@contesting.com
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/topband
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Topband digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Balloon Supported Vertical (Dick Bingham)
2. Re: Balloon Supported Vertical (Jim Brown)
3. Re: Balloon Supported Vertical (Pete Smith N4ZR)
4. Re: Balloon Supported Vertical (Mark - N5OT)
5. Re: Balloon Supported Vertical (W7TMT - Patrick)
6. Re: Balloon Supported Vertical (W7TMT - Patrick)
7. Re: Balloon Supported Vertical (Adrian)
8. Re: Balloon Supported Vertical (Adrian)
9. Re: Balloon Supported Vertical (Mike Smith VE9AA)
10. cheap radial wire? (Greg Davis)
11. Re: Balloon Supported Vertical (Adrian)
12. Re: Balloon Supported Vertical (Mark - N5OT)
13. Re: Balloon Supported Vertical (Adrian)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 12:48:14 -0800
From: Dick Bingham <dick.bingham@gmail.com>
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Topband: Balloon Supported Vertical
Message-ID: <F1E9D21B-7529-4D7A-91AB-472ACECDAA0F@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Greetings All
I want to try a balloon supported Vertical for 160.
Any advice on sources for balloons? Mylar material
and diameters up to 2-feet would be my choice.
73. Dick/w7wkr at CN97uj
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 13:00:25 -0800
From: Jim Brown <jim@audiosystemsgroup.com>
To: topband@contesting.com
Cc: W6JTI <letton@asis.com>
Subject: Re: Topband: Balloon Supported Vertical
Message-ID:
<bce484c1-2e3a-17ad-0f43-6d701b33de04@audiosystemsgroup.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
On 11/8/2021 12:48 PM, Dick Bingham wrote:
> I want to try a balloon supported Vertical for 160.
> Any advice on sources for balloons? Mylar material
> and diameters up to 2-feet would be my choice.
W6JTI and W4EF are two guys I know who have done it (and JTI still does,
although he's been finding helium expensive in the last few years).
73, Jim K9YC
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 16:16:56 -0500
From: Pete Smith N4ZR <pete.n4zr@gmail.com>
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: Balloon Supported Vertical
Message-ID: <d1714357-0427-37a1-da1a-b545093ab4c3@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Here's an interesting source -
https://balloonmarket.co.uk/lift-ability.? Looks like one of the last
couple in the table should be big enough - say 5 feet in diameter for
starters.
73, Pete N4ZR
Check out the new Reverse Beacon Network
web server at<http://beta.reversebeacon.net>.
For spots, please use your favorite
"retail" DX cluster.
On 11/8/2021 4:00 PM, Jim Brown wrote:
> On 11/8/2021 12:48 PM, Dick Bingham wrote:
>> I want to try a balloon supported Vertical for 160.
>> Any advice on sources for balloons? Mylar material
>> and diameters up to 2-feet would be my choice.
>
> W6JTI and W4EF are two guys I know who have done it (and JTI still
> does, although he's been finding helium expensive in the last few years).
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
> _________________
> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
> Reflector
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 15:17:53 -0600
From: Mark - N5OT <r-emails@n5ot.com>
To: TopBand List <topband@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: Topband: Balloon Supported Vertical
Message-ID: <c9837d18-b85f-73d6-a52c-25c603aa3367@n5ot.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Been There Done That
You might want to figure the weight of what you have to lift.? One would
think it was, like, duh, you make a wire vertical and fill a balloon
full of helium and ... but it turns out you need to be careful about the
weight of the wire and insulators and you need to project how much
helium you can use and how much lift you will need and ... all that.
Just saying all that because the last thing you want to find out is,
after you've got it all together, you just can't get it up in the air.
I seem to recall I needed more like a 3 or 4 foot balloon to lift mine.
And be careful of the sticker shock on the gas.? I thought it was a lot
of money 20 years ago.? Rumor has it, it has not gone down in price.
The first one worked well until I had a bad wind.
The second one had some kind of corona arc off the top of the wire which
popped the (relatively expensive) balloon after only a couple minutes of
testing it out.? Or something.? It popped on a clear calm day but under
Full Power.
Anyway, that wrecked my day.? I decided it wasn't fun any more and have
been using more conventional 160 meter verticals since.
I think we wrote it up in the NCJ but don't remember and have slept
since then.
Oh sorry, you asked where to get the balloons.? I think I got mine from
a party supply store.? It was not mylar.
Note - Googling reminds me of these facts:
Helium can lift 1 gram per litre.
A balloon 2 feet in diameter will contain 118 litres of helium.
That will lift 118 grams of antenna, = 4.1 ounces.
132 feet of bare #18 solid copper wire weighs 10.4 ounces.
A 2 foot balloon filled with helium will not lift a 160 vertical made of
#18 wire, not to mention any extra line or insulators, etc.
But a 4 foot balloon will lift a little over 2 pounds.
Now I'm having nightmares again.
73 - Mark N5OT
On 11/8/2021 2:48 PM, Dick Bingham wrote:
> Greetings All
>
> I want to try a balloon supported Vertical for 160.
> Any advice on sources for balloons? Mylar material
> and diameters up to 2-feet would be my choice.
>
> 73. Dick/w7wkr at CN97uj
> _________________
> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 21:26:49 +0000
From: W7TMT - Patrick <W7TMT@outlook.com>
To: Dick Bingham <dick.bingham@gmail.com>, "topband@contesting.com"
<topband@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: Topband: Balloon Supported Vertical
Message-ID:
<MW2PR1501MB19784EC0E0D223F792CD6FE3F1919@MW2PR1501MB1978.namprd15.prod.outlook.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
>From personal experience I can tell you that a 2 foot Mylar balloon is not
>nearly big enough to carry a wire for 160. I used one to fly a 45? length of
>26 gauge wire to bring the total of a vertical I had rigged up on my sailboat
>to 90?. It had enough lift for that until the wind came up.
BTW, if you were to use that wire size and admit it publicly you?ll quickly be
told it has too little surface area for use on 160 and the vendor will even add
a note to their Web site saying so. No matter that the antenna that would not
load before did, and the contest was won for your section not withstanding.
Brian N9ADG has a well documented explanation of what it takes here. He
currently holds both the ARRL and CQWW 160 records for this section (WWA). As
I recall at least one of the records was set using that antenna, perhaps both.
http://n9adg.com/antennas/86/
Patrick, W7TMT
________________________________
From: Topband <topband-bounces+w7tmt=outlook.com@contesting.com> on behalf of
Dick Bingham <dick.bingham@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, November 8, 2021 12:48:14 PM
To: topband@contesting.com <topband@contesting.com>
Subject: Topband: Balloon Supported Vertical
Greetings All
I want to try a balloon supported Vertical for 160.
Any advice on sources for balloons? Mylar material
and diameters up to 2-feet would be my choice.
73. Dick/w7wkr at CN97uj
_________________
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 21:54:35 +0000
From: W7TMT - Patrick <W7TMT@outlook.com>
To: Mark - N5OT <r-emails@n5ot.com>, TopBand List
<topband@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: Topband: Balloon Supported Vertical
Message-ID:
<MW2PR1501MB19789E9AD698B5A3E5135E8EF1919@MW2PR1501MB1978.namprd15.prod.outlook.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
Regarding the helium?
Be advised the gas used by the party stores these days is almost always a
mixture and not pure helium. That?s means considerably less lift. You?ll likely
need to source the good stuff from a industrial gas supplier.
W7TMT
________________________________
From: Topband <topband-bounces+w7tmt=outlook.com@contesting.com> on behalf of
Mark - N5OT <r-emails@n5ot.com>
Sent: Monday, November 8, 2021 1:17:53 PM
To: TopBand List <topband@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: Topband: Balloon Supported Vertical
Been There Done That
You might want to figure the weight of what you have to lift. One would
think it was, like, duh, you make a wire vertical and fill a balloon
full of helium and ... but it turns out you need to be careful about the
weight of the wire and insulators and you need to project how much
helium you can use and how much lift you will need and ... all that.
Just saying all that because the last thing you want to find out is,
after you've got it all together, you just can't get it up in the air.
I seem to recall I needed more like a 3 or 4 foot balloon to lift mine.
And be careful of the sticker shock on the gas. I thought it was a lot
of money 20 years ago. Rumor has it, it has not gone down in price.
The first one worked well until I had a bad wind.
The second one had some kind of corona arc off the top of the wire which
popped the (relatively expensive) balloon after only a couple minutes of
testing it out. Or something. It popped on a clear calm day but under
Full Power.
Anyway, that wrecked my day. I decided it wasn't fun any more and have
been using more conventional 160 meter verticals since.
I think we wrote it up in the NCJ but don't remember and have slept
since then.
Oh sorry, you asked where to get the balloons. I think I got mine from
a party supply store. It was not mylar.
Note - Googling reminds me of these facts:
Helium can lift 1 gram per litre.
A balloon 2 feet in diameter will contain 118 litres of helium.
That will lift 118 grams of antenna, = 4.1 ounces.
132 feet of bare #18 solid copper wire weighs 10.4 ounces.
A 2 foot balloon filled with helium will not lift a 160 vertical made of
#18 wire, not to mention any extra line or insulators, etc.
But a 4 foot balloon will lift a little over 2 pounds.
Now I'm having nightmares again.
73 - Mark N5OT
On 11/8/2021 2:48 PM, Dick Bingham wrote:
> Greetings All
>
> I want to try a balloon supported Vertical for 160.
> Any advice on sources for balloons? Mylar material
> and diameters up to 2-feet would be my choice.
>
> 73. Dick/w7wkr at CN97uj
> _________________
> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
_________________
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 08:02:53 +1000
From: Adrian <vk4tux@gmail.com>
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: Balloon Supported Vertical
Message-ID: <07060da5-f519-38af-b39c-3dc9e9caadfd@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
I have been doing it here for well over a year. I originally set it all
up with a 1/4w vertical for 630m,
'which performs very well., Then also 160m and 80m using 3/4w lengths
For 160m I use 90cm latex balloons fully inflated. I use the online wind
forecast showing area
wind velocity and direction. Over 7km/h it is a waste of time. A small
wind velocity 5km/h and less is beneficial
if the direction is away from the target DX. It becomes directional back
in from the line lean angle.
A slight breeze above 7km/h will bring the balloon down quickly, and
getting snagged in trees with gusts is a common issue.
It is a game of luck as often the wind forecast is inaccurate, but when
all is well it is unbeatable.
I use a G size industrial supply Helium bottle, for which I also pay
rent monthly. It is still cheaper than a tower,
that would never get approval on a small block. As the activity is at
night it is reasonably stealth.
vk4tux
On 9/11/21 06:48, Dick Bingham wrote:
> Greetings All
>
> I want to try a balloon supported Vertical for 160.
> Any advice on sources for balloons? Mylar material
> and diameters up to 2-feet would be my choice.
>
> 73. Dick/w7wkr at CN97uj
> _________________
> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 08:14:37 +1000
From: Adrian <vk4tux@gmail.com>
To: W7TMT - Patrick <W7TMT@outlook.com>, Mark - N5OT
<r-emails@n5ot.com>, TopBand List <topband@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: Topband: Balloon Supported Vertical
Message-ID: <78e7b428-aee3-c93e-824d-85819e5c288d@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Even here the industrial stuff is not 'pure' helium.
They don't admit this until questioned. Helium molecules being smaller
leak through the latex skin leaving the bigger air molecules trapped
behind.
After the session, I usually bring the balloons back into the house and
untie them after a few days for re-use,
but for a smaller 80m use size, as they deteriorate and often pop if
re-reinflated to original size.
After 2-3 days on the ceiling and reducing to 1/3 -1/4 size they sink to
the floor, indicating the residual gas is
not helium, otherwise it would still float. Some have said it is safety
feature for people not to black out when breathing
the gas for the funny voice gag, Otherwise it is just paying for what
you don't need, to be legally ripped off.
vk4tux
On 9/11/21 07:54, W7TMT - Patrick wrote:
> Regarding the helium?
>
> Be advised the gas used by the party stores these days is almost always a
> mixture and not pure helium. That?s means considerably less lift. You?ll
> likely need to source the good stuff from a industrial gas supplier.
>
> W7TMT
> ________________________________
> From: Topband <topband-bounces+w7tmt=outlook.com@contesting.com> on behalf of
> Mark - N5OT <r-emails@n5ot.com>
> Sent: Monday, November 8, 2021 1:17:53 PM
> To: TopBand List <topband@contesting.com>
> Subject: Re: Topband: Balloon Supported Vertical
>
> Been There Done That
>
> You might want to figure the weight of what you have to lift. One would
> think it was, like, duh, you make a wire vertical and fill a balloon
> full of helium and ... but it turns out you need to be careful about the
> weight of the wire and insulators and you need to project how much
> helium you can use and how much lift you will need and ... all that.
>
> Just saying all that because the last thing you want to find out is,
> after you've got it all together, you just can't get it up in the air.
>
> I seem to recall I needed more like a 3 or 4 foot balloon to lift mine.
>
> And be careful of the sticker shock on the gas. I thought it was a lot
> of money 20 years ago. Rumor has it, it has not gone down in price.
>
> The first one worked well until I had a bad wind.
>
> The second one had some kind of corona arc off the top of the wire which
> popped the (relatively expensive) balloon after only a couple minutes of
> testing it out. Or something. It popped on a clear calm day but under
> Full Power.
>
> Anyway, that wrecked my day. I decided it wasn't fun any more and have
> been using more conventional 160 meter verticals since.
>
> I think we wrote it up in the NCJ but don't remember and have slept
> since then.
>
> Oh sorry, you asked where to get the balloons. I think I got mine from
> a party supply store. It was not mylar.
>
> Note - Googling reminds me of these facts:
>
> Helium can lift 1 gram per litre.
> A balloon 2 feet in diameter will contain 118 litres of helium.
> That will lift 118 grams of antenna, = 4.1 ounces.
> 132 feet of bare #18 solid copper wire weighs 10.4 ounces.
>
> A 2 foot balloon filled with helium will not lift a 160 vertical made of
> #18 wire, not to mention any extra line or insulators, etc.
>
> But a 4 foot balloon will lift a little over 2 pounds.
>
> Now I'm having nightmares again.
>
> 73 - Mark N5OT
>
>
> On 11/8/2021 2:48 PM, Dick Bingham wrote:
>> Greetings All
>>
>> I want to try a balloon supported Vertical for 160.
>> Any advice on sources for balloons? Mylar material
>> and diameters up to 2-feet would be my choice.
>>
>> 73. Dick/w7wkr at CN97uj
>> _________________
>> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
> _________________
> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
> _________________
> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 18:17:49 -0400
From: "Mike Smith VE9AA" <ve9aa@nbnet.nb.ca>
To: <topband@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: Topband: Balloon Supported Vertical
Message-ID: <002101d7d4ee$77772180$66656480$@nbnet.nb.ca>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Dick,
I see you're getting some replies trickling in already.
Two feet won't do it I don't think my friend....not even close.
In 1997 @ CY9AA (St. Paul's Island) we had a balloon supported 160m vertical
using a very fine uninsulated wire (and I think maybe kite string too). I
was not in charge of this part of the expedition (VE1PZ was our topband guy)
but I am pretty sure we used a 4-5' - "rubber" balloon. (could've been
latex or something similar)
We eventually lost our balloons to sharp rocks, so lacking any other method
or access to a store, hi) we blew up a few green garbage bags,
(doublebagged) which surprisingly lasted a few hours or maybe more..where
there's a will, there's a way.
We were pretty loud in EU and elsewhere, right over salt water.
I think Doug (VE1PZ) went to a specialty (welding?) store to get the gas. I
have no idea what it was-pure helium I presume, but you can see the orange
tank in one 24yr old photo here:
http://www.uksmg.org/content/cy9photo.htm
Good luck !
Mike VE9AA..ex cy9aa, cy0aa
Greetings All
I want to try a balloon supported Vertical for 160.
Any advice on sources for balloons? Mylar material
and diameters up to 2-feet would be my choice.
73. Dick/w7wkr at CN97uj
_________________
Mike, Coreen & Corey
Keswick Ridge, NB
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 17:20:21 -0500
From: Greg Davis <n3zl.radio@gmail.com>
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Topband: cheap radial wire?
Message-ID:
<CAPW-Egf_j5YSLOJe=ugBssJa_TDn0V5Lt74038Ca7ExWDWpF5Q@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Hello Topbanders,
I recently reached out directly to a few people who had posted
recently(ish) to this email reflector who had described purchasing large
amounts of wire for radials at a (relative) bargain price.
However, after a couple of weeks of waiting, none of those emails have been
responded to. I've got a new-and-improved plan for my 160m vertical in my
back yard, but, at this moment in time, the biggest thing holding me back
is the wire for a sufficient radial field. Do any of you have spools of
wire you're willing to sell to me if the price is right? Or suggestions for
me where I can purchase it for a reasonable price?
Thank you.
73 de Greg N3ZL
------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 08:21:34 +1000
From: Adrian <vk4tux@gmail.com>
To: W7TMT - Patrick <W7TMT@outlook.com>, Mark - N5OT
<r-emails@n5ot.com>, TopBand List <topband@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: Topband: Balloon Supported Vertical
Message-ID: <6406ba5e-3743-3e67-4d69-d56ad613a464@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Also the disposable party balloon bottles are a waste of $ and would
only inflate 2 to 3 of the balloons here.
Industrial gas supply is required to make it viable.
"
ABN 95 000 029 729
Riverside Corporate Park
10 Julius Ave, North Ryde NSW 2113
Tel: 131 262 www.boc.com
Email: contact@boc.com
2nd June 2021
Dear Adrian Fewster,
BOC special offer on compressed gas for Adrian Fewster.
Thank you for your enquiry regarding the supply of gases and equipment
from BOC Limited. Our customers
are assured of BOC's genuine commitment to providing premium gas
products and services in addition to
ongoing technical support, and the convenience of our large national
distribution network.
Pricing for products which are purchased by you but which are not listed
in the special offer pricing table
below will be charged at BOC's standard or list prices for each such
individual product as varied from time
to time unless otherwise agreed. The gas pricing for the products listed
in the special offer pricing table
below will be varied in proportion to changes in BOC's standard prices
for each individual product and the
rental pricing will vary in line with BOC's standard charges unless
otherwise agreed. This does not apply to
prices for LPG, Refrigerant, Helium and Acetylene products which will
vary in line with Supplier increases as
they are incurred.
All prices below are GST exclusive. Price may vary if purchased from a
different BOC Gas & Gear or Gas
Agent.
Gas CodeDescriptionCylinder
Volume
Annual
Quantity
Delivered
Price**
Rental (per
day)##
124GBALLOON GAS G SIZE7.1m31$398.31$0.6822
For refrigerant products a refrigerant reclaim and fluoro activity levy
of $2.38/kg also applies.
** Where a standard local delivery option is available
## Rental Pricing is described as Service Charges in BOC's General Terms
and Conditions of Supply
Rental Pricing
Cylinder CodeRental (per day)
'G' Size$0.6822
You may accept the special offer pricing above in the manner set out in
the last paragraph of this letter. By
accepting the special offer pricing above, you warrant that you do not
have a binding exclusive supply
arrangement with another supplier for any or all of the products listed
in the special offer pricing table
above (or for products substantially similar to those listed) applicable
to your site(s) where the products are
to be used.
The Agreement so formed between BOC and you for the supply of the
products listed in the special offer
pricing table above will consist of the terms and conditions set out in
this special offer pricing letter
together with the BOC General Terms and Conditions of Supply. (as
amended from time to time) (accessible
from our website (www.boc.com.au)).
Under this Agreement we will supply and you will purchase all of your
requirements for the products
covered by this Agreement. This Agreement will commence on the date of
formal acceptance and continues
until you or we terminate it by giving a minimum of 6 (six) months'
notice expiring at the end of the
minimum period of 1year(s) or by either party giving a minimum of 1
(one) months' notice after the expiry
of the minimum period, or until it is terminated under the BOC General
Terms and Conditions of Supply.
At BOC we believe that our business is here to help your business so if
you have any queries please feel
free to get in touch with me at jamie-lee.palelei@boc.com.
This offer will be loaded to your customer account within two business
days. "
vk4tux
On 9/11/21 07:54, W7TMT - Patrick wrote:
> Regarding the helium?
>
> Be advised the gas used by the party stores these days is almost always a
> mixture and not pure helium. That?s means considerably less lift. You?ll
> likely need to source the good stuff from a industrial gas supplier.
>
> W7TMT
> ________________________________
> From: Topband<topband-bounces+w7tmt=outlook.com@contesting.com> on behalf of
> Mark - N5OT<r-emails@n5ot.com>
> Sent: Monday, November 8, 2021 1:17:53 PM
> To: TopBand List<topband@contesting.com>
> Subject: Re: Topband: Balloon Supported Vertical
>
> Been There Done That
>
> You might want to figure the weight of what you have to lift. One would
> think it was, like, duh, you make a wire vertical and fill a balloon
> full of helium and ... but it turns out you need to be careful about the
> weight of the wire and insulators and you need to project how much
> helium you can use and how much lift you will need and ... all that.
>
> Just saying all that because the last thing you want to find out is,
> after you've got it all together, you just can't get it up in the air.
>
> I seem to recall I needed more like a 3 or 4 foot balloon to lift mine.
>
> And be careful of the sticker shock on the gas. I thought it was a lot
> of money 20 years ago. Rumor has it, it has not gone down in price.
>
> The first one worked well until I had a bad wind.
>
> The second one had some kind of corona arc off the top of the wire which
> popped the (relatively expensive) balloon after only a couple minutes of
> testing it out. Or something. It popped on a clear calm day but under
> Full Power.
>
> Anyway, that wrecked my day. I decided it wasn't fun any more and have
> been using more conventional 160 meter verticals since.
>
> I think we wrote it up in the NCJ but don't remember and have slept
> since then.
>
> Oh sorry, you asked where to get the balloons. I think I got mine from
> a party supply store. It was not mylar.
>
> Note - Googling reminds me of these facts:
>
> Helium can lift 1 gram per litre.
> A balloon 2 feet in diameter will contain 118 litres of helium.
> That will lift 118 grams of antenna, = 4.1 ounces.
> 132 feet of bare #18 solid copper wire weighs 10.4 ounces.
>
> A 2 foot balloon filled with helium will not lift a 160 vertical made of
> #18 wire, not to mention any extra line or insulators, etc.
>
> But a 4 foot balloon will lift a little over 2 pounds.
>
> Now I'm having nightmares again.
>
> 73 - Mark N5OT
>
>
> On 11/8/2021 2:48 PM, Dick Bingham wrote:
>> Greetings All
>>
>> I want to try a balloon supported Vertical for 160.
>> Any advice on sources for balloons? Mylar material
>> and diameters up to 2-feet would be my choice.
>>
>> 73. Dick/w7wkr at CN97uj
>> _________________
>> Searchable Archives:http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
> _________________
> Searchable Archives:http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
> _________________
> Searchable Archives:http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
------------------------------
Message: 12
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 16:32:21 -0600
From: Mark - N5OT <r-emails@n5ot.com>
To: TopBand List <topband@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: Topband: Balloon Supported Vertical
Message-ID: <6335626c-d687-9efe-3b5b-097467134437@n5ot.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
> we used a 4-5' - "rubber"? balloon. (could've been latex or something
similar)
So did I.? A 4 foot diameter balloon has 33-ish cubic feet of volume.?
Looks like Helium is running about $2 a cubic foot = $66 per use?
Gad.? Too pricey for N5OT.
73 - Mark
On 11/8/2021 4:21 PM, Adrian wrote:
> Also the disposable party balloon bottles are a waste of $ and would
> only inflate 2 to 3 of the balloons here.
>
> Industrial gas supply is required to make it viable.
>
> "
>
> ABN 95 000 029 729
> Riverside Corporate Park
> 10 Julius Ave, North Ryde NSW 2113
> Tel: 131 262 www.boc.com
> Email: contact@boc.com
> 2nd June 2021
> Dear Adrian Fewster,
> BOC special offer on compressed gas for Adrian Fewster.
> Thank you for your enquiry regarding the supply of gases and equipment
> from BOC Limited. Our customers
> are assured of BOC's genuine commitment to providing premium gas
> products and services in addition to
> ongoing technical support, and the convenience of our large national
> distribution network.
> Pricing for products which are purchased by you but which are not
> listed in the special offer pricing table
> below will be charged at BOC's standard or list prices for each such
> individual product as varied from time
> to time unless otherwise agreed. The gas pricing for the products
> listed in the special offer pricing table
> below will be varied in proportion to changes in BOC's standard prices
> for each individual product and the
> rental pricing will vary in line with BOC's standard charges unless
> otherwise agreed. This does not apply to
> prices for LPG, Refrigerant, Helium and Acetylene products which will
> vary in line with Supplier increases as
> they are incurred.
> All prices below are GST exclusive. Price may vary if purchased from a
> different BOC Gas & Gear or Gas
> Agent.
> Gas CodeDescriptionCylinder
> Volume
> Annual
> Quantity
> Delivered
> Price**
> Rental (per
> day)##
> 124GBALLOON GAS G SIZE7.1m31$398.31$0.6822
> For refrigerant products a refrigerant reclaim and fluoro activity
> levy of $2.38/kg also applies.
> ** Where a standard local delivery option is available
> ## Rental Pricing is described as Service Charges in BOC's General
> Terms and Conditions of Supply
> Rental Pricing
> Cylinder CodeRental (per day)
> 'G' Size$0.6822
> You may accept the special offer pricing above in the manner set out
> in the last paragraph of this letter. By
> accepting the special offer pricing above, you warrant that you do not
> have a binding exclusive supply
> arrangement with another supplier for any or all of the products
> listed in the special offer pricing table
> above (or for products substantially similar to those listed)
> applicable to your site(s) where the products are
> to be used.
> The Agreement so formed between BOC and you for the supply of the
> products listed in the special offer
> pricing table above will consist of the terms and conditions set out
> in this special offer pricing letter
> together with the BOC General Terms and Conditions of Supply. (as
> amended from time to time) (accessible
> from our website (www.boc.com.au)).
> Under this Agreement we will supply and you will purchase all of your
> requirements for the products
> covered by this Agreement. This Agreement will commence on the date of
> formal acceptance and continues
> until you or we terminate it by giving a minimum of 6 (six) months'
> notice expiring at the end of the
> minimum period of 1year(s) or by either party giving a minimum of 1
> (one) months' notice after the expiry
> of the minimum period, or until it is terminated under the BOC General
> Terms and Conditions of Supply.
> At BOC we believe that our business is here to help your business so
> if you have any queries please feel
> free to get in touch with me at jamie-lee.palelei@boc.com.
> This offer will be loaded to your customer account within two business
> days. "
>
>
> vk4tux
>
>
> On 9/11/21 07:54, W7TMT - Patrick wrote:
>> Regarding the helium?
>>
>> Be advised the gas used by the party stores these days is almost
>> always a mixture and not pure helium. That?s means considerably less
>> lift. You?ll likely need to source the good stuff from a industrial
>> gas supplier.
>>
>> W7TMT
>> ________________________________
>> From: Topband<topband-bounces+w7tmt=outlook.com@contesting.com> on
>> behalf of Mark - N5OT<r-emails@n5ot.com>
>> Sent: Monday, November 8, 2021 1:17:53 PM
>> To: TopBand List<topband@contesting.com>
>> Subject: Re: Topband: Balloon Supported Vertical
>>
>> Been There Done That
>>
>> You might want to figure the weight of what you have to lift. One would
>> think it was, like, duh, you make a wire vertical and fill a balloon
>> full of helium and ... but it turns out you need to be careful about the
>> weight of the wire and insulators and you need to project how much
>> helium you can use and how much lift you will need and ... all that.
>>
>> Just saying all that because the last thing you want to find out is,
>> after you've got it all together, you just can't get it up in the air.
>>
>> I seem to recall I needed more like a 3 or 4 foot balloon to lift mine.
>>
>> And be careful of the sticker shock on the gas.? I thought it was a lot
>> of money 20 years ago.? Rumor has it, it has not gone down in price.
>>
>> The first one worked well until I had a bad wind.
>>
>> The second one had some kind of corona arc off the top of the wire which
>> popped the (relatively expensive) balloon after only a couple minutes of
>> testing it out.? Or something.? It popped on a clear calm day but under
>> Full Power.
>>
>> Anyway, that wrecked my day.? I decided it wasn't fun any more and have
>> been using more conventional 160 meter verticals since.
>>
>> I think we wrote it up in the NCJ but don't remember and have slept
>> since then.
>>
>> Oh sorry, you asked where to get the balloons.? I think I got mine from
>> a party supply store.? It was not mylar.
>>
>> Note - Googling reminds me of these facts:
>>
>> Helium can lift 1 gram per litre.
>> A balloon 2 feet in diameter will contain 118 litres of helium.
>> That will lift 118 grams of antenna, = 4.1 ounces.
>> 132 feet of bare #18 solid copper wire weighs 10.4 ounces.
>>
>> A 2 foot balloon filled with helium will not lift a 160 vertical made of
>> #18 wire, not to mention any extra line or insulators, etc.
>>
>> But a 4 foot balloon will lift a little over 2 pounds.
>>
>> Now I'm having nightmares again.
>>
>> 73 - Mark N5OT
>>
>>
>> On 11/8/2021 2:48 PM, Dick Bingham wrote:
>>> Greetings All
>>>
>>> I want to try a balloon supported Vertical for 160.
>>> Any advice on sources for balloons? Mylar material
>>> and diameters up to 2-feet would be my choice.
>>>
>>> 73. Dick/w7wkr at CN97uj
>>> _________________
>>> Searchable Archives:http://www.contesting.com/_topband? - Topband
>>> Reflector
>> _________________
>> Searchable Archives:http://www.contesting.com/_topband? - Topband
>> Reflector
>> _________________
>> Searchable Archives:http://www.contesting.com/_topband? - Topband
>> Reflector
> _________________
> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
> Reflector
------------------------------
Message: 13
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2021 09:02:06 +1000
From: Adrian <vk4tux@gmail.com>
To: Mark - N5OT <r-emails@n5ot.com>, TopBand List
<topband@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: Topband: Balloon Supported Vertical
Message-ID: <43f075e1-3a91-f123-a796-cbfb10f9cab8@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Here, for full size 90cm - 1m balloons it works out around $20 au helium
per balloon, plus $2 balloon plus $5-10 average line loss.
So a night session is around $30 au in costs on average, and only when
conditions are right, otherwise you are wasting your time and $.
The bigger the industrial bottle you can purchase the better the deal.
Also you can negotiate price with the supplier, I cut my original
offer price nearly in half as well is 25% off my rental. Recommended
retail compared to a trade customer pricing has big pricing difference.
In the USA you should be able to do it for $20 or less per balloon. Also
using too big a balloon is wasting helium $ and increasing line break risk.
I use difference inflation levels for each band 630m biggest to 80m
smallest. If I re-use balloons, i only use them on 80m , which is the
smaller inflation.
A bigger balloon gets hit harder and creates much more line stress with
sudden gusts. The advantage of using 3/4 w setups is if the break is at the
1/4w point (trees house etc) the impedance change to the amp is not so
dramatic and the LDMOS amp in low survives the event on swr trip.
Watching the swr real-time on the SPE, and have a finger on the halt
button has saved gear here. A sudden wind change and a 2nd story gutter
contact can just
blow the line at the contact point during TX, and its start again, but
the amp remains good.
As the line changes angle the swr changes with it, and with experience
trouble can be avoided.
The lift force should just be in excess of the total line weight, less
than 2:1.
vk4tux
On 9/11/21 08:32, Mark - N5OT wrote:
> > we used a 4-5' - "rubber"? balloon. (could've been latex or
> something similar)
>
> So did I.? A 4 foot diameter balloon has 33-ish cubic feet of volume.?
> Looks like Helium is running about $2 a cubic foot = $66 per use?
>
> Gad.? Too pricey for N5OT.
>
> 73 - Mark
>
>
> On 11/8/2021 4:21 PM, Adrian wrote:
>> Also the disposable party balloon bottles are a waste of $ and would
>> only inflate 2 to 3 of the balloons here.
>>
>> Industrial gas supply is required to make it viable.
>>
>> "
>>
>> ABN 95 000 029 729
>> Riverside Corporate Park
>> 10 Julius Ave, North Ryde NSW 2113
>> Tel: 131 262 www.boc.com
>> Email: contact@boc.com
>> 2nd June 2021
>> Dear Adrian Fewster,
>> BOC special offer on compressed gas for Adrian Fewster.
>> Thank you for your enquiry regarding the supply of gases and
>> equipment from BOC Limited. Our customers
>> are assured of BOC's genuine commitment to providing premium gas
>> products and services in addition to
>> ongoing technical support, and the convenience of our large national
>> distribution network.
>> Pricing for products which are purchased by you but which are not
>> listed in the special offer pricing table
>> below will be charged at BOC's standard or list prices for each such
>> individual product as varied from time
>> to time unless otherwise agreed. The gas pricing for the products
>> listed in the special offer pricing table
>> below will be varied in proportion to changes in BOC's standard
>> prices for each individual product and the
>> rental pricing will vary in line with BOC's standard charges unless
>> otherwise agreed. This does not apply to
>> prices for LPG, Refrigerant, Helium and Acetylene products which will
>> vary in line with Supplier increases as
>> they are incurred.
>> All prices below are GST exclusive. Price may vary if purchased from
>> a different BOC Gas & Gear or Gas
>> Agent.
>> Gas CodeDescriptionCylinder
>> Volume
>> Annual
>> Quantity
>> Delivered
>> Price**
>> Rental (per
>> day)##
>> 124GBALLOON GAS G SIZE7.1m31$398.31$0.6822
>> For refrigerant products a refrigerant reclaim and fluoro activity
>> levy of $2.38/kg also applies.
>> ** Where a standard local delivery option is available
>> ## Rental Pricing is described as Service Charges in BOC's General
>> Terms and Conditions of Supply
>> Rental Pricing
>> Cylinder CodeRental (per day)
>> 'G' Size$0.6822
>> You may accept the special offer pricing above in the manner set out
>> in the last paragraph of this letter. By
>> accepting the special offer pricing above, you warrant that you do
>> not have a binding exclusive supply
>> arrangement with another supplier for any or all of the products
>> listed in the special offer pricing table
>> above (or for products substantially similar to those listed)
>> applicable to your site(s) where the products are
>> to be used.
>> The Agreement so formed between BOC and you for the supply of the
>> products listed in the special offer
>> pricing table above will consist of the terms and conditions set out
>> in this special offer pricing letter
>> together with the BOC General Terms and Conditions of Supply. (as
>> amended from time to time) (accessible
>> from our website (www.boc.com.au)).
>> Under this Agreement we will supply and you will purchase all of your
>> requirements for the products
>> covered by this Agreement. This Agreement will commence on the date
>> of formal acceptance and continues
>> until you or we terminate it by giving a minimum of 6 (six) months'
>> notice expiring at the end of the
>> minimum period of 1year(s) or by either party giving a minimum of 1
>> (one) months' notice after the expiry
>> of the minimum period, or until it is terminated under the BOC
>> General Terms and Conditions of Supply.
>> At BOC we believe that our business is here to help your business so
>> if you have any queries please feel
>> free to get in touch with me at jamie-lee.palelei@boc.com.
>> This offer will be loaded to your customer account within two
>> business days. "
>>
>>
>> vk4tux
>>
>>
>> On 9/11/21 07:54, W7TMT - Patrick wrote:
>>> Regarding the helium?
>>>
>>> Be advised the gas used by the party stores these days is almost
>>> always a mixture and not pure helium. That?s means considerably less
>>> lift. You?ll likely need to source the good stuff from a industrial
>>> gas supplier.
>>>
>>> W7TMT
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: Topband<topband-bounces+w7tmt=outlook.com@contesting.com> on
>>> behalf of Mark - N5OT<r-emails@n5ot.com>
>>> Sent: Monday, November 8, 2021 1:17:53 PM
>>> To: TopBand List<topband@contesting.com>
>>> Subject: Re: Topband: Balloon Supported Vertical
>>>
>>> Been There Done That
>>>
>>> You might want to figure the weight of what you have to lift. One would
>>> think it was, like, duh, you make a wire vertical and fill a balloon
>>> full of helium and ... but it turns out you need to be careful about
>>> the
>>> weight of the wire and insulators and you need to project how much
>>> helium you can use and how much lift you will need and ... all that.
>>>
>>> Just saying all that because the last thing you want to find out is,
>>> after you've got it all together, you just can't get it up in the air.
>>>
>>> I seem to recall I needed more like a 3 or 4 foot balloon to lift mine.
>>>
>>> And be careful of the sticker shock on the gas.? I thought it was a lot
>>> of money 20 years ago.? Rumor has it, it has not gone down in price.
>>>
>>> The first one worked well until I had a bad wind.
>>>
>>> The second one had some kind of corona arc off the top of the wire
>>> which
>>> popped the (relatively expensive) balloon after only a couple
>>> minutes of
>>> testing it out.? Or something.? It popped on a clear calm day but under
>>> Full Power.
>>>
>>> Anyway, that wrecked my day.? I decided it wasn't fun any more and have
>>> been using more conventional 160 meter verticals since.
>>>
>>> I think we wrote it up in the NCJ but don't remember and have slept
>>> since then.
>>>
>>> Oh sorry, you asked where to get the balloons.? I think I got mine from
>>> a party supply store.? It was not mylar.
>>>
>>> Note - Googling reminds me of these facts:
>>>
>>> Helium can lift 1 gram per litre.
>>> A balloon 2 feet in diameter will contain 118 litres of helium.
>>> That will lift 118 grams of antenna, = 4.1 ounces.
>>> 132 feet of bare #18 solid copper wire weighs 10.4 ounces.
>>>
>>> A 2 foot balloon filled with helium will not lift a 160 vertical
>>> made of
>>> #18 wire, not to mention any extra line or insulators, etc.
>>>
>>> But a 4 foot balloon will lift a little over 2 pounds.
>>>
>>> Now I'm having nightmares again.
>>>
>>> 73 - Mark N5OT
>>>
>>>
>>> On 11/8/2021 2:48 PM, Dick Bingham wrote:
>>>> Greetings All
>>>>
>>>> I want to try a balloon supported Vertical for 160.
>>>> Any advice on sources for balloons? Mylar material
>>>> and diameters up to 2-feet would be my choice.
>>>>
>>>> 73. Dick/w7wkr at CN97uj
>>>> _________________
>>>> Searchable Archives:http://www.contesting.com/_topband? - Topband
>>>> Reflector
>>> _________________
>>> Searchable Archives:http://www.contesting.com/_topband? - Topband
>>> Reflector
>>> _________________
>>> Searchable Archives:http://www.contesting.com/_topband? - Topband
>>> Reflector
>> _________________
>> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
>> Reflector
>
> _________________
> Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband
> Reflector
------------------------------
Subject: Digest Footer
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Topband mailing list
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http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/topband
------------------------------
End of Topband Digest, Vol 227, Issue 8
***************************************
_________________
Searchable Archives: http://www.contesting.com/_topband - Topband Reflector
|