On 3/30/2018 3:43 PM, daraymond@iowatelecom.net wrote:
The rub comes in when those contacts are lumped in and counted for
DXCC mixed and other recognition programs in the same manner as
traditional contacts.
The difference in sensitivity between FT8 and CW is about as much as
between AM and CW. There is no thought of banning CW from Mixed DXCC
so why should FT8 be treated any differently? What FT8 does is allow
those who are not running California Killowatts on 160 meters a real
chance of success where they had no shot previously.
73,
... Joe, W4TV
On 3/30/2018 3:43 PM, daraymond@iowatelecom.net wrote:
Hello George. . .
Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I don't believe most hams have any
issue with computer-to-computer modes opening up new opportunities for
hams with limited facilities. The rub comes in when those contacts are
lumped in and counted for DXCC mixed and other recognition programs in
the same manner as traditional contacts. To use your boat analogy
below, it's like putting a power boat in the same race with a sailboat.
They both have their merits. . .but they are simply two different
things. That said, there will always be people seeking equal
recognition without having to make the effort. . . that's become a given
in the pop culture. 73 to all. . .Dave, W0FLS
-----Original Message----- From: GEORGE WALLNER
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2018 1:26 PM
To: daraymond@iowatelecom.net ; k1zm@aol.com ; topband@contesting.com
Subject: Re: Topband: Straws in the Wind ....A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is
Upon us!
Dave,
For those of us who like CW, it will always be the preferred mode. FT8 may
lower the DXCC threshold; perhaps it should be counted differently. But FT8
is opening 160 m to hams with limited facilities, and that is a good thing.
Most of us know that HF is a linear environment and that there is always
some signal, even if it is way below the noise. That signal has always been
there, ready to be exploited by a new mode. So FT8's success should not
be a
surprise.
Personally, I want the CW QSO, not the just the QSO.
I see a parallel in sailing. Power boats (and ships for sure) way
outperform
sailing boats. Still, there are as many sailing enthusiasts out there as
before. They love sailing, not just getting there.
C U on CW,
George.
AA7JV
On Fri, 30 Mar 2018 10:10:29 -0500
<daraymond@iowatelecom.net> wrote:
IMHO, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the demise of CW
(alas). Between FT8 and RHR, topband standings as we have known them
are virtually meaningless. The guy with a backyard vertical,
reasonable radial system, and 100w can easily accomplish on topband
(and get equal DXCC credit) what has historically taken a significant
effort. . .QRO, large antennas/arrays, and receive antennas. As for
the DXpeditions, they will quickly migrate to this mode with the
improving QSO throughput as it requires comparatively little skill on
the part of the operators. For me personally, it is disappointing to
watch it all unfold. But unfold, it will. 73. . .Dave, W0FLS
-----Original Message----- From: k1zm--- via Topband
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2018 6:50 AM
To: topband@contesting.com
Subject: Topband: Straws in the Wind ....A 160m Dx'ing Sea Change is
Upon us!
Hello Gang
I am probably not the only one who has been paying attention lately,
but I may be the first to comment directly on what has been taking
place right before our eyes the past two nights on 1.836kHz - and its
possible implications going forward for future Dx'ing on 160m. Pls
read on.
I am sure most readers of these pages are well aware of the current
dx'pedition to Malawi operating as 7Q7EI. Norbert DJ7JC has been a
real trooper working the lowbands and has had quite a bit of success
doing so - so well deserved kudos & thanks to Norbert. Norbert has
managed to make quite a few NA stations happy with a NEW ONE on
Topband and we all very much appreciate his efforts - well done
Norbert - thank you!
So what I am about to comment on next IN NO WAY is an negative opinion
on Norbert - it is just an observation as to what is now occurring and
its possible implications for all of us who like to work DX on 160M!.
On or about 27 March, Norbert tried 160M CW operating on 1830kHz - in
his grayline period - and was heard by a number of stations including
NO3M and me here at VY2ZM. Others were in there too perhaps - Kaz K8KS
may have been another and a few more as well. I also heard some EU
stations in there calling among the NA stations.
About 0228z, Norbert asnwered me as UY2ZM - went QRZ a few times but
QRNN on his side prevented a legitimate qso. I heard him fine but I
know he did not copy my callsign correctly - and later he even said so
over ON4KST noting "I heard a few callers, mainly from EU but logged
no NA or EU qso's on Topband - so I went back to 80M CW as the sun
came up."
The next night Norbert came on ON4KST chat and announced that he was
going to try 1836 using the new FT8 Dx'pedition mode now in beta
trials following its release by K1JT. I am told that the dx'pedition
version of FT8 will also be used experimentally by the upcoming KH1
Dx'pedition.
Dx'pedition Mode - offers some unique promise when and if it ever is
fully conceived including:
1) A shortened qso sequence using only 2 of the traditional FT8
required QSO elements
2) The promise of simultaneous qso's between Multiple HOUNDS and the
FOX (in this example the FOX was 7Q7EI)
3) The potential, as a result, of up to 300-400 qso's per hour may be
possible one day - which would improve the overall qso totals of any
dx'pedition - IF this ever becomes REALITY.
So on night two Norbert came up on FT8 dx'pedition mode - first on 80m
and I managed to work him fairly quickly here at VY2ZM.
Others worked him as well - as we all struggled to learn exactly how
to operate this new flavor of FT8. It is a bit tricky and I invite
anyone reading this who may be interested to take a look - because
Dx'pedition mode uses special settings within WSJT-x - and one must
configure things exactly right - or it just does not function as one
might expect traditional FT8 to function in order to complete qso's.
Nearer to his SR, Norbert went to 1836 and I think he may have worked
a couple of NA stations - I tried but without success because I did
not pay close enough attention to ON4KST - and I came to 160m too late
in the game to have a good shot as he went into daylight on his side.
So what is going on here exactly? And why did I choose to make this
post to Topband?
The answer is fairly simple and stems from what I observed this past
summer on 6M during the Sporadic E season. I happen to like to work
6M E during the summer and was all set around the end of June for what
I hoped would be a great E season on 6M CW into Europe. I worked a
couple of stations on CW in late June but during the first or second
week of July, K1JT released the production version of FT8 and almost
immediately everyone realized its potential (particularly those in the
Mid and Far Western USA) - where it was immediately called a "GAME
CHANGER" by K7JA and others on the Left Coast.
Well - it SURELY WAS A GAME CHANGER - because I did not hear a single
CW DX station out of Europe on 6M for the rest of the summer E season
after that - everyone had qsy'ed to 50.313 to work FT8 - because it
WORKED so well on 6M - even on E skip paths. And since I did not have
FT8 capability - I was TOTALLY SHUT OUT and had NO 6M E season of
Dx'ing - BUMMER!
So how does this apply to Topband? Pls read on.....
Last night was NIGHT 3 into NA on the lowbands from 7Q7EI - and
Norbert was back - first on 160m on 1836 from about 0130z - until
around 0320z - again on FT8 - in dx'pedition mode. By now, most of us
had downloaded the dx'pedition mode version of WSJT-x and had sort of
figured out how to do the parameter settings correctly - so quite a
few QSO's ensued.
I happened to be one of the lucky ones on 160M - there were quite a
few others.
Watching my screen though (along with KAZ K8KS) it was clear that K1JT
still has some clean up work to do to refine the dx'pedition mode
software - because the promise of 300 qso's per hour is not yet
possible - but I think the throughput rate will one day improve
materially. (:Last night the throughput was SO SLOW that some
suggested to Norbert that he stop using dx'pedition mode in favor of
the more reliable current release of FT8 that is on the air today.)
Norbert also elected to stay on FT8 - despite many requests from those
constrained by CW only capability to move over to CW mode - so those
without FT8 basically sat on the sidelines last night watching all of
this transpire. My thoughts at the time were - "Here we go again!
This is 6M E season "DEJA VUE all over again - the 6M E migration to
Ft8 was now happening all over again - but this time on 160M - and it
suggests a real possibility of it becoming the choice of major
dxpeditions going forward - meaning - FT8 is likely to be used on 160m
far more regularly going forward and CW mode utilized much less
perhaps (maybe!). My crystal ball is no better than yours - but if
FT8 dx'pedition mode gets perfected by K1JT and becomes more EFFICIENT
one day than CW mode - you can be SURE that it will become very
popular and it will get used far more (at the expense of CW) by the
rarer Dx'peditions when they choose to QSY to Topband!
You can take that to the BANK!
At one point, Norbert who was on CHAT all night long - lamented some
of the comments he was seeing by others on CHAT. Basically, while he
was more than courteous, it was clear that he felt like "HEY! I am
the FOX here.....I get to choose to operate whatever mode I think will
work - and those sitting in their comfortable chairs back at home (and
not sitting in the heat here on the shores of Lake Malawi - really do
not get to decide this.!! Again, I am the FOX here.......)
Basically, Norbert was right on here - IMHO....
Some more observations:
1) Experimental FT8 qso's are not completing reliably as they should -
at least not yet all the time - for example: K8KZ was clearly seeing
7Q7EI calling him on his screen for at least 20 mins before the
software linked up at each end to sent the RR73 message - the signal
that the QSO was complete.
And Norbert was clearly "seeing" K8KS for the same 20 mins - before
they linked up to finalize and log the QSO. I had similar problems on
160M when working Norbert - so it is clear that K1JT has some more
work to do,. But, we do have to realize that this is still only a
BETA/experimental release - and YES - it does have some glitches and
bugs yet to be ironed out.
But it does work (after a fashion) and I am sure it will get better -
and WHEN IT DOES become a fully functional PRODUCTION RELEASE, I do
think we will witness some MAJOR operating changes going forward when
working future DX'peditions and even when casual dx'ing on 160M -
which is happening every night on 1840 today. I am seeing Wal W8LRL
most every night - and am dabbling in it myself as is my XYL Miriam
VY2HH - so old dawgs (like me) are being forced (sometimes kicking and
screaming) to learn new tricks.
One final comment:
This all took place on 1836 and I think on 3569 down on 80m these past
few nights. Traditional FT8 (according to the ARRL 160m bandplan)
takes place on 1840. So I am hopeful that the migration to the new
mode continues to take place in an orderly fashion because FT8 and CW
really will not mix well - should FT8 start showing up below 1830 that
will cause problems - (just my opinion) - but reality I think.
So - I think that is the lot for now. Not much more to report - but
for sure - "A change is coming to Dx'ing on 160M - there is NO DOUBT
about it - I do not think this is a passing FAD. "DIGI-WIGI" or its
other name "JINGLE BELLS" looks like it is here to stay!!!
73 JEFF K1ZM/VY2ZM
Jeff Briggs
DXing on the Edge: The Thrill of 160 Meters
Available worldwide through BookBaby, Array Solutions, DX Engineering,
Royal Society of Great Britain, & Amazon
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