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Re: [Amps] 4CX1600B

To: "Ian White, G3SEK" <g3sek@ifwtech.co.uk>," AMPS" <amps@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: [Amps] 4CX1600B
From: R.Measures <r@somis.org>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 02:16:46 -0800
List-post: <mailto:amps@contesting.com>

>R. Measures wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Yo 4CX1600B owners
>>>
>>>After many years of faithful service, (rode hard, put away wet), my QRO
>>>3k amp "banged" during the WW. Easy repair, the bridge rectifier for the
>>>-160 VDC control grid was shorted. Took longer to replace all the screws
>>>holding the QRO HFDX-3K amp together then find and repair the problem.
>>>
>>>If this was a 4-1000 in my home brews I would replace the parts and never
>>>give a second thought to continue using the tube, but as it's a 4CX1600B I
>>>replaced the tube with a new spare.
>>>
>>>Anyone have a history on this tube? Once they arc are they ready for the
>>>(as far as I can throw) pitch in the woods?
>>
>>***  I would not conclude that the tube arced until an autopsy is done.
>>If you heard a loud bang, it is unlikely that it was caused by an an
>>internal arc since an arc inside the envelope makes only a little sound
>>outside the envelope.
>>- - -   Does the circuit in which the 4cx1600 is used have a grid
>>terminating R?  If so, is there an inductor in series with said R?  If
>>so, how much L?  tnx.
>>>
>>>I could put it back in the amp and see what happens but next summer after
>>>the contest season.
>>
>>**  Rich -- If it proves to be a dud, I would like to disembowel it and
>>publish the autopsy photos of the guts on my Web site.
>
>That would be interesting, but not necessary.

***  I know it's not necessary, Ian, but it's interesting to me and 
perhaps to some other amp builders, and if you are proved right, it's 
another feather in your war-bonnet. .  
>
>Let's be logical about this. KL7RA has already told us what happened to 
>this tube: the negative grid bias failed, so it pulled lots of current.

***  Wasn't there something about a big-bang?  What if the bang preceeded 
the bias problem?  I'll take an autopsy photo over speculation any day of 
the month.
>
>The tube itself did not cause the fault. The question is whether the 
>tube was damaged *by* the fault.

*** ... an opinion.  Maybe wromg, maybe right.  An autopsy will shed some 
light
>
>This was a totally DC-related fault with a DC-related explanation.

**   But what about the big bang?  
 
>So why are we now diverting/confusing ourselves by thinking about the RF 
>part of the amplifier? 

**  Because experience tells me that a big-bang in a 3-500Z amplifier is 
not a tube problem.  It is an regeneration problem that results in the 
hot filament being pushed sideways, presumably by EMF, except of cource  
in aerobatic airplane-mobile service, of course.   If the filament gets 
pushed far enough, it shorts against the grid cage.   [see relevant 
autopsy photo in "Parasitics Revisited". September/October, 1990, *QST 
Magazine*.]  //   Regeneration is the natural result a tube's ability to 
amplify VHF combined with the tube's/valve's oft'-ignored  feedback-C.  
-  813s are virtually immune to this unhappy problem because they have 
virtually no VHF gain, but 4CX1600Bs and 3-500Zs do.

>When the bias supply was repaired and the tube 
>was replaced, the amp produced RF again as normal. Since nothing 
>RF-related is broken, it don't need fixin'

**  Based on my experiences with 3-500Zs and 8170s, I would like to do an 
autopsy on the tube -- provided it's kaput.  
>
>Also there is no logical reason to assume an arc here. That large pulse 
>of current was quite probably normal electron current from the cathode, 
>simply because the grid bias had failed. An arc is a different way of 
>pulling lots of current, involving positive ions as well as electrons. 
>Arcs in tubes sometimes do happen, but this time we have no reason to 
>suppose that an arc took place.
>
>The bang would have come from the external circuit, where that same 
>large current was also flowing (for example from a fuse blowing).
>
**  I don't buy it because with 0V on the grid, the HV drops to a low 
potential because the 1600B is drawing c. 3A, until the mains breaker 
opens uneventfully.

>So the only *relevant* question is whether that pulse of current has 
>damaged the tube... possibly by pulling too many electrons from the 
>oxide cathode surface.
>
**  ... which an autopsy photo will undoubtedly show.  [see relevant 
autopsy photo in "Parasitics Revisited". September/October, 1990, *QST 
Magazine*.]  

>The only way to find out is to put the tube back in the amp and try it. 

**  agreed

>Given the cost and difficulty of finding another spare 4CX1600B, don't 
>let a few screws get in the way.
>
>
>-- 
>73 from Ian G3SEK ...
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