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Re: [Amps] Building 833 Amplifier. Hints and Suggestions?

To: "'Roger'" <sub1@rogerhalstead.com>, "'Greg Weinfurtner'" <weinfurt@ohio.edu>
Subject: Re: [Amps] Building 833 Amplifier. Hints and Suggestions?
From: "Joe Subich, W4TV" <lists@subich.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 00:34:00 -0400
List-post: <amps@contesting.com">mailto:amps@contesting.com>

> w5jgv.com/downloads/RCA%20*833A*.pdf
> shows a pair of them can run the legal limit and a single one can get 
> about 1200 PEP out, but this is with a plate dissipation of  only 350 
> watts so a lot depends on the duty cycle. The filaments ae 10V @ 10A 
> thoriated tungsten so unlike many of the big power tubes the 
> filaments are not terribly power hungry.

I would be somewhat concerned about the quality of an amplifier using 
the 833.  Both the Matchlett and RCA data sheets show power outputs 
in the 200 - 250 W range per tube in "Class B telephony" service.  

I don't know if that is low level AM or if the efficiency falls off  
that much between class C (plate modulated or FM service).  

The 1980 Handbook does not give power output but indicates that 
efficiencies of "55 to 65% can be expected."  The design was for 
1 KW input in class AB2. 

73, 

   ... Joe, W4TV 
   




> -----Original Message-----
> From: amps-bounces@contesting.com 
> [mailto:amps-bounces@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Roger
> Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 7:10 PM
> To: Greg Weinfurtner
> Cc: amps@contesting.com
> Subject: Re: [Amps] Building 833 Amplifier. Hints and Suggestions?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Greg Weinfurtner wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >          I am new to the list so be kind! I went through all of the 
> > threads
> > on amps@contesting.com concerning an amplifier using 833's 
> and pretty much 
> > came up with very little usable information. Why 833's?  
> Why do I still 
> > deer hunt with a muzzle loader with just iron sites? Why do 
> people still 
> > build tube regens?  Just 'cause I guess it is a challenge 
> and the 833 is a 
> > magnificent looking tube all aglow!
> >   
> Others may not share my views but:
> 
> I find the 833 intriguing but I've always thought it was 
> ugly<:-)) OTOH 
> I too have wanted to build up an amp using them.  
> w5jgv.com/downloads/RCA%20*833A*.pdf
> shows a pair of them can run the legal limit and a single one can get 
> about 1200 PEP out, but this is with a plate dissipation of  only 350 
> watts so a lot depends on the duty cycle. The filaments ae 10V @ 10A 
> thoriated tungsten so unlike many of the big power tubes the 
> filaments 
> are not terribly power hungry.
> 
> With forced air cooling they are referring to 40 cfm out of a 
> 2" nozzle 
> directly over the tube with the flow directed between the 
> plate and grid 
> connections.  Using a "swamped grid" approach takes about  
> 40-50 watts 
> of drive for a pair of them to get over the legal limit out., 
> but that 
> can vary widely depending on plate voltage.
> 
> I think a pair of those with the ability to view them while running 
> would be impressive.
> 
> Due to the physical geometry I'd think (but don't know) that the 
> isolation of the input circuitry from the output would take a 
> bit more 
> care than with modern tubes.
> 
> I've been looking at the idea of building up a similar amp 
> using a pair 
> of the GU81M Russian tubes.  Those things are BIG!
> 
> more below.
> >          I was an Electronic Design Specialist for Ohio 
> University for 
> > over
> > 22+ years and have built a hybrid solid state 160 meter SSB/CW 100 
> > 22+ watt
> > transceiver (Using a pair of 6146's) from the ground up, (
> > http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~weinfurt/160mrindex.html 
> )including a 500 hz CW 
> > filter. Age is mid 50's and was in Tube/Solid State 
> transition during 
> > college years. Yep, slip sticks to calculators to SMD's. 
> BSS (Bachelor of 
> > Specialized Studies in Shortwave RF Engineering) is from 
> 1994, so that and 
> > being an EDS helped keep me in the loop until I recently retired.
> >
> >          I have all the parts to put together 160 meter single band
> > amplifier. I realize that it is a low mu tube of about 35, 
> and would 
> > probably not make a great grounded grid tube... but maybe 
> at 160 meters a 
> > pair of them could reach legal limit with less than 100 watts input?
> >
> >          I have 5 each of 833A pulls, with only 6 months of 
> use. I got
> > these from the engineer in charge and he said that usual 
> pull time is at 
> > least over a year or unless some failure occurs.  But, the 
> owner of the 
> > station demanded that he do it every 6 months no matter 
> what the condition 
> > and he kept the 'like new' ones.  Yes they are old, 20 years or so.
> >
> >          I would prefer help from someone who has actually used the 
> > 833 in
> > some type of RF circuit.  But anyone with engineering 
> experience with a 
> > behemoth of this type knowledge would be great!  I plan to 
> set up a web 
> > page and with my progress to keep those helping informed of 
> my advancement 
> > into the past!
> >
> > Characteristics for the 833A are
> > at:  http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~weinfurt/833A.pdf
> >
> > 
> **********************************************************************
> > **************
> > Plan.
> >
> > 1 Two of them in parallel or Push-Pull?
> >   
> Single band you can take your pick. Use link coupling with 
> PP. Parallel 
> is a bit simpler.
> > 2 Grid driven with a 55 ohm, 75 watt non-inductive resistor 
> to ground.
> >
> > 3 Pi output network or Pi L ? Or Link coupled output?
> >   
> Single band, take your choice.
> > 4 Operation is CW and occasionally SSB. Bias voltage on Cathode 
> > developed
> > across about 60v Zener to ground?
> >   
> According to the data sheet, you might want to run around -90 
> as a stand 
> by bias to limit dissipation. 
> > 5 Power supply is capable of 3000 VDC at 1 Amp.
> >   
> That "to me" appears to be a bit toward the low end for these.  But 
> running higher voltage gives a plate load impedance of over 10K ohms.
> > 6 Forced air cooling up from pressurized bottom chassis to 
> box on top
> > housing tubes and output components.
> >   
> No.  Due to the rather unique physical geometry of these tubes the 
> maximum cooling air is needed between the plate and grid 
> seals keeping 
> the temperature down to a max of 145C. 40 cfm from a 2" 
> nozzle directed 
> down and between the plate and grid terminals.
> > 7 Tubes mounted in vertical position. Heat sinks for pin 
> connections.
> >   
> That might be a tad unstable...BTW the only permissible mounting 
> position according to the data sheet is vertical.
> 
> 73 and good luck,
> 
> Roger (K8RI)
> > Greg Weinfurtner AEE BSS
> > NS8O
> > 40192 State Route 689
> > Meigs County
> > Albany, Ohio 45710
> > United States of America 
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> >
> >   
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