So far, at least, FT8 is restricted to a relatively small slice of the
bands. As long as that remains true, I'm with Jeff.
73, Pete N4ZR
Check out the new Reverse Beacon Network
web server at <http://beta.reversebeacon.net>.
For spots, please use your favorite
"retail" DX cluster.
On 6/21/2021 11:53 AM, Jeff Clarke wrote:
I guess I don't understand why this FT8 subject is dominating the
contest reflector again? It's pretty simple... if you don't like FT8
then don't operate that mode. You can still work lots of DX on the
traditional CW and SSB modes. My guess is any group that goes to a
rare DXCC entry will concentrate more on CW and SSB anyway. FT8 won't
be a high priority and will only be used when propagation isn't good
(or dead) on a specific band. As far as I know there are only maybe a
couple dedicated FT8 contests and it's allowed in RTTY contests as
well? Isn't there a RTTY contesting list? Maybe this subject should
be discussed there? Just saying...
Jeff
On 6/20/2021 06:53 PM, Salvatore ["Ted"] K2QMF wrote:
FT8 also takes the FUN out of Ham Radio and out of DXing and out of
Contesting!!
Ted K2QMF
On 6/20/2021 5:53:05 PM, wa1fcn <wa1fcn@charter.net> wrote:
GA Ken
I have read your post a couple of times. My thoughts......
You are partly
correct. DXSummit and RBN have certainly changed how we DX.
There are
a couple differences between that and what FT8 did to DXing!
Did the
RBN/DXSummit stop or curtail any CW/SSB operations? Do You
have friends
club members ect. who feel/talk bad about RBN ect, probably
not.
Let me be clear I am not totally against FT8 only the way
ARRL has integrated
it with the DXCC program, and it's effect on RTTY and the
thought once a
new ham gets into FT8 seriously, you can forget about
him/her putting any real effort
into learning CW or being a proficient SSB operator. For
full disclosure every few months
I do get on FT8 for a couple weeks.
Back to DXCC with FT8......... What can be done with 50
watts FT8 can not even
be done with a KW on SSB or CW now. Do you consider
those QSL's/QSO's
equal to SSB/CW efforts ? I do not.
73 OM BoB WA1FCN
On 6/20/2021 11:46 AM, ktfrog007@aol.com wrote:
Hi Bob,
You wrote: The ARRL has destroyed the value of DXCC.
===========================================
The ARRL hasn't done anything. Technological change has.
The DX clusters and RBN destroyed the value of DXCC. That happened
quite a while back. Long before FT8 came along.
DXers used to be admired for their skills, knowledge and
perseverance. They used to operate by their wits. No longer. That's
what ruined DXCC.
Name me a DXer you admire who has started from scratch 15 years ago
and has over 300 Current confirmed and hasn't used the clusters or
RBN..
73,
Ken, AB1J
-----Original Message-----
From: wa1fcn
To: cq-contest@contesting.com
Sent: Sun, Jun 20, 2021 12:46 am
Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] Contesting and the FT8 Revolution
GE Kostas
I just wanted you to know you are not the only one to feel bad
about DXCC.
In the past couple years a few people have E-Mailed me
about their feelings
in regards to DXCC. The ARRL has destroyed the value of
DXCC. It has taken
me a lifetime (over 50years) to achieve DXCC of 285 on 40
meters low power.
They should of separated FT8/FT4 from all other modes in
Single band DXCC.
DX with FT8 is fishing in a barrel. Can you imagine the
DXCC totals on 12 and 10
meters when the Sunspot cycle improves! Where is the
challenge now?! There
is none! I can go on to other FT8 minuses like how it
destroyed RTTY, how it has
made some hams lazy and see no need to put any effort into
becoming a more
proficient operator in other modes.
Ok Kostas I will stop now as I am sure I offended
enough hams already.
73 BoB WA1FCN
On 6/19/2021 2:46 PM, Kostas SV1DPI wrote:
Maybe you have right. But I don't feel the same.
** The small pistol station revolution
Having 1 kw and a 2el quad @10m high, I don't feel a big gun. I had
the chance to be competitive in dxing because I devoted many hours
studying propagation and even more time on the radio. Now there is no
chance for me to make something that others do not. They let their
computer and play 24 hours per day with better antennas and more
power.... So yes small pistols have the chance to work something they
had not but not to be competitive...
** The station optimization revolution
I have at least one friend who has a long wire and have worked 290
countries the last 3 years, of course in ft8, including pacific, etc.
So why to make his station better? I remember that I put my quad
higher when I lost a dxpedition, I bought an amplifier the next time,
etc... Now there is no chance to loose a dxpedition especially because
almost every dxpedition (let me know it - don't forget that the first
ft8 robot was Greek and I know some of the guys bought it) uses more
than one robots running ft8 all day. And they have not the courage to
say it...
** The now-casting propagation revolution
In SZ1A we have a skimmer (maybe you know it even it is out of order
the last 3 weeks - we have ordered the damaged parts). We use the
results of the skimmer to make our plans in contests. The first time
we were keeping ft8 qsos as the CW qsos also. This had as a result to
drive us to mistakes in real contesting. While the band seemed to be
open the previous days during specific time, it wasn't finally during
the contest. So we stopped using the FT8 spots and now we keep only
the CW qsos to make our plans.
** The marginal bands revolution
Yes, ft8 helps a weaker station to have a QSO (I don't think "to be
heard" is the right expression). I am not a 6m fun but I managed to
work 125 entities the last 15 years. Also optimization of antennas,
radios, amplifiers, etc, all these years. Someone using ft8, has
worked these entities the last 2 years in the lower point of solar
cycle using the half length of my boom. But what he will do the next
years... What he will work in high part of solar cycle? And why he
needs to wait for it? Probably he will play cards because I don't
think he will stay in ham radio... If you don't need to improve the
station, the antennas, to study and learn propagation, to learn more,
to increase your knowledge, etc... what will be the interesting part
to keep you in ham radio? I already know someone who stopped to play
radio, never installed his new hexbeam, because he worked WAS on 40m
in a week with a long wire (WAS is far more difficult from DXCC from
Greece), letting his computer to play ever night. Plus another one who
had dxcc with all entities in ft8 but he didn't know the QSO
procedure!
In conclusion, I don't care what the others do. I mentioned about
others just to show the results. I have not fun with ft8 and this is
why I don't use it. If you are pleasant with it, do it. I don't care.
I lost my interest for DXing.
I can not understand how someone has fun with ft8 in contesting.
Because the rhythm? Because the nice sound? Because of the pileup? Or
because he has the time to go to the toilet while his computer makes
some QSOs...
By the way I am a digital guy! I gave many new ones to west coast guys
on RTTY from Iran (EP6T) and I have 329 entities on RTTY. I have tried
ft8 and I didn't like it. I abandoned dxcc program while I was HR1, HR
on SSB and CW and had over 2850 entities in challenge because of Ft8
acceptance by ARRL. I am crying over the money I gave to ARRL. After
25 years in ham radio I continue to play chasing fun in CW/SSB/RTTY
contesting (mainly casual but more serious also sometimes) and I don't
think ft8 could be part of my contesting habits.
73 Kostas SV1DPI
Στις 19/6/2021 18:24, ο/η José Nunes CT1BOH έγραψε:
There is a revolution going on – The FT8 revolution! Like other
revolutions, it is a breakthrough and there is no coming back. But
unlike
what many think, FT8 mode is fantastic for amateur radio and of
course for
contesting.
There are several things I can particularly note:
** The spotting revolution
Because of the default reporting option of FT8 applications, every
station
that uses JTDX/WSJT applications is constantly spotting all the
stations
that the decoders hear. Every station becomes a spotting machine
of the
bands (just like a skimmer) while they are on. The result?! 20.8
billion
FT8 spots in 4 years.
** The small pistol station revolution
Considering a 2500 Hz bandwidth and weak-signal/Noise Ratio, SSB can
go as
low as +10 dB, CW -15 db and FT8 -21dB. To put it in another way,
since
doubling power results in 3 dB increase in SNR, a 31db difference
means 1W
in FT8 versus 1024 watts in SSB.
A modest station, suddenly, feels like a new world of propagation has
opened to him and this in return brings more and more people to the
bands
because of the fun of working stations and paths not before
available.
There is a virtuous cycle – more spots, more people, more activity,
more
spots, more people, more activity, …
** The now-casting propagation revolution
With such a huge volume of spots, 20.8 billion in 4 years and
around 22
million spots per day [just for your reference last CQWW CW generated
6.5M
spots], propagation prediction is turning into now-casting
propagation.
There is no need for propagation prediction anymore because,
knowing the
propagation pattern from 20 billion spots and getting real
propagation from
the 22 million spots per day, real time conditions come from
now-casting
propagation - any circuit can be determined to be open or close.
You can watch my 2021 Contest University presentation about this
subject
here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-esob7BPtc&t=20340s
and/or get the
slides of the presentation slides here
https://www.contestuniversity.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/There-is-Nothing-Magic-About-Propagation-CTU-2021-CT1BOH.pdf
** The station optimization revolution
This is perhaps one of the most overlooked aspects of FT8 and of
great
interest to contest stations. Because of the spotting revolution and
because every FT8 station uses exact grid locator, the exact path
of the
circuits can be drawn. A contest station that uses a simple FT8
skimmer can
monitor, 24x7, the potential of any antenna set-up, compare different
antennas configuration (A/B testing using different calls), test
antenna
take-off angles, and adjust this information to available
propagation at
any time, before or during a contest. “22 million spots per day” are
there
available to test your station. I believe every station, DX or
Contest, should
use a FT8 Skimmer, like the stand alone Red Pitaya
https://www.redpitaya.com/ to skim
several bands at the same time at
a very
low cost, provide now-casting information, check antenna and location
potential and use that for station optimization. This link takes you
to a
visualization of my modest small pistol station (just a simple long
wire)
potential on all the bands https://tinyurl.com/e6767we8
in the last 24
hours.
** The marginal bands revolution
With FT8, marginal bands like 160, 10 and 6 meters become alive
like no
other. Going deeper into the SNR, “opens” new circuits, brings more
activity, confirms these circuits were always there. We are working
Japan
on 6 meters on a daily basis... Also, there is a move from CW into
FT8 on
these band. This is a side effect, but it is what it is. If people
suddenly
find a band open at -21dB that before was close at -15dB, of course
they
will use the mode that enables those QSOs and will not use the other
mode
anymore.
In any case competitive contesting (SSB and CW) has a lot to gain
form this
revolution. Exciting times indeed
73 José Nunes
CONTEST CT1BOH - http://www.qsl.net/ct1boh
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