Good Afternoon Stan and All
I do use On-Line Scoarboard tho not in every contest. It
has it's pros and cons.
There have been a couple times where it totally
DEmotivated me. I was too discouraged
to see so many ahead of me. There were other cases of it
having no negative effect on
me. I have gotten into some fun with a couple guys in my same
category going back
and forth with score leading. In IARU contest this year I
decided to not post to
scoreboard only because I wanted no distractions. As it turned
out it was my best
performance ever. I know propagation was the main reason for
that tho......still.
BoB WA1FCN
On 7/2/2023 7:21 PM, Stan Zawrotny wrote:
Operating in a contest is like running a race. Would you want to run the
race blindfolded, which is exactly how we run contests without scoreboards.
In running a race, I would like to know if someone is just ahead of me, so
that I can try harder to pass them. Likewise, I would like to know if
someone is making a run to pass me.
Yes, the more skilled ops will gain tactical information, but so will
everyone. Scoreboards may add another facet to the game, but everyone will
gain. Everyone will learn how to use the new information -- if you don't,
then you don't deserve to be in the top scorers. But even if you are in the
second tier of competitors who contest for the fun of it, then you will
have more fun because you can witness the competition.
Scoreboards add excitement to the radiosport. That excitement may attract
more competitors from the younger generations.
I'm tired of running the event blindfolded.
__________
Stan, K4SBZ
On Sun, Jul 2, 2023 at 2:21 PM <kq2m@kq2m.com> wrote:
Scoreboards provide a multitude of information and different ops use
that info in different ways to different effects. The score at any
given point basically tells you who is ahead or behind in aggregate; it
is a snapshot of what has already happened and on what bands the op made
it happen; however, watching for CHANGES in the band by band breakdown
tells you where those changes in score are happening NOW which is very
valuable info if the op knows how to use that effectively, and clearly
not the same thing as DX Cluster spots which give away the freq and time
of the spotted stations.
Neither of these is even remotely the same thing as monitoring Solar WX
websites which provide info on what the Sun and Ionosphere/Earth's
magnetic field are doing or have already done, and provide ZERO
information about what actual stations operating in the contest are
doing or have already done. I also monitor Doppler radar so that I can
see what the weather is doing or might do - which is a primarily a
matter of operator safety especially with T-storms. I use these
resources as real-time operating aids, but NONE of this information is
generated by any operators in the contest and it does not give frequency
location of any station in the contest, hence does NOT provide any
assistance for the single-op. Why any contest committee member might
see this as comparable to DX Cluster or skimmer, or providing assistance
(facilitating making contest qso's) to the NON-Assisted opr., is beyond
me.
Then there is the practice of some stations/operators posting real-time
audio/video streams of themselves operating during a contest. Is that a
form of assistance and facilitating making qso's if the op is
NON-Assisted? A form of self-spotting perhaps? Part of the answer to
that depends on how the op uses that technology to display and promote
their operation in real-time and what information is being broadcast to
viewers/listeners. Some of these ops are/were more careful than others
about doing that.
I can see how "drawing a box" around the station and eliminating use of
the internet might be one way of dealing with issues that facilitate
operators making contest qso's, but IMO it would be like using a
blowtorch to kill a fly; one which would make operators "blind" to
potentially dangerous weather hazards, and also eliminate the use of the
internet for non-contest purposes like watching TV, checking email etc.
It would also effectively eliminate remote operating which is internet
based, unless an exception for that mode of operating was granted.
I disagree with Randy though as far as whether or not it is "too late".
As contest directors and managers have repeatedly demonstrated over the
past decade, decisions on categories, rule-changes and
re-characterizations are often made quickly and without regard to what
the majority of contest participants think or want.
Bob, KQ2M
On 2023-07-01 22:10, Randy Thompson wrote:
Scoreboards provide one very real value to operators - the opportunity
to know how their competition is doing for score. Contesting used to
be 'man isolated in basement' vs his own mental fortitude to persevere.
You had to be self motivated because you had no idea how others were
doing. The scoreboards now give you a view of how the other racers are
doing and can provide motivation to keep pushing whether you are ahead
or behind. They are even more valuable during part time efforts, where
you sit down for awhile and can compete against the other scores around
yours.
Scoreboards are not even close to the value of looking at the DX
cluster in terms of knowing what bands are open, to where, and who is
on. If you have time to look at the detailed breakdowns in real-time
from a scoreboard, you wouldn't know very much and probably aren't
winning anyway.
As for the contest committee rule making... yes. The focus was all
about the new Packet thing on VHF and the value of getting real-time
spots. The assisted rules were written around the concept of station
finding consisting of a callsign and frequency. As the Internet
quickly took over, we suddenly found there were many other information
sources that should have been included. Watching the solar weather
forecast (something I know you do as a SO) is an example. If we were
writing the rule today we would probably draw a box around the station
and allow Internet and skimmer tools, or we would allow nothing. Too
late.
Things do keep changing. Self-spotting is a whole new can of worms,
but also looks like it will be with us going forward thanks to ARRL.
Randy K5ZD
-----Original Message-----
From: CQ-Contest <cq-contest-bounces+k5zd=outlook.com@contesting.com>
On Behalf Of kq2m@kq2m.com
Sent: Saturday, July 1, 2023 11:30 AM
To: Mike Fatchett W0MU <w0mu@w0mu.com>
Cc: cq-contest@contesting.com
Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] WRTC Spotting
Scoreboards are informative and fun to watch, and this usefulness
brings about my main objection to their use being allowed by the
NON-Assisted ops; that watching a scoreboard provides valuable
information about band openings, rate and what is likely being worked
on the band(s), by whom and when. In some ways scoreboard info can be
even more useful than actually viewing DX cluster spots which only tell
you what is being spotted and by whom, not who/what is actually being
worked in real-time.
I believe that use of the Scoreboard constitutes Assisted operating
since this real-time information is provided by others DURING the
contest.
For these reasons I personally do not look at scoreboards when I am
operating NON-Assisted, regardless of whether or not the SOABHP
category allows it. I believe that the contest committees seriously
erred many years ago when they gave their blessing to scoreboard use by
the _NON-Assisted_ ops along with several other forms of real-time
technology including skimmer.
Why Mike and others feel the need to "get everyone to use scoreboards"
is baffling to me. Why not get others to develop and improve their
OPERATING SKILLS instead?
And, NO, there are many among us who DON'T "accept automatic spotting
on every mode"; rather, we have learned to live with it because we have
no control over it and have not been left with a viable alternative
except not to operate.
Regarding SSB spotting in WRTC, I can see both the pros and cons of
doing this and the strong opinions already expressed. Each WRTC
committee is charged with making their own rules and each WRTC event
has introduced new ideas and competition "tweaks" to experiment with
them.
Some have been great and others not, but it is part of the ongoing
evolution of WRTC (just as in the Olympics) and it will be interesting
to see how this hybrid form of SSB spotting turns out.
Both WRTC and technology sure have changed a lot since the
groundbreaking event took place in Seattle, WA, some 33 years ago. It
is still one of the highlights of my life!
I wish the 2022 WRTC Committee and all judges, support people,
participants and competitors, a most awesome and wonderful event!
CU in IARUHF!
73
Bob, KQ2M
In 2023-06-30 18:13, Mike Fatchett W0MU wrote:
I don't see much of an issue. CW spots are automatic with RBN and
skimmer. Why not SSB spots? IARU could change their rules. Same for
any other contest. Maybe this is how we get everyone to use
scoreboards. If you use the scoreboards you get spotted on SSB.
We accept automatic spotting on every mode but SSB simple because we
don't have a good way to do it. Maybe this changes that......
W0MU
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