Towertalk
[Top] [All Lists]

Re: [TowerTalk] MODEL FOR TOWER

To: towertalk@contesting.com
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] MODEL FOR TOWER
From: Gedas <w8bya@mchsi.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2019 13:45:08 -0400
List-post: <mailto:towertalk@contesting.com>
One thing I have not seen mentioned (maybe I missed it) is the fact that a whole lot of time & effort is going to go into generating a super accurate model for a complex tower and antenna system but then, what of the grounding of the tower itself at the base? Grounded or un-grounded or sorta grounded are all going to give different results.

There are going to be deviations from real world results if one models with the limitations of objects touching the ground with NEC-2 and even with NEC-4.

Gedas, W8BYA

Gallery at http://w8bya.com
Light travels faster than sound....
This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.

On 4/25/2019 7:40 PM, jimlux wrote:
On 4/24/19 5:03 PM, Steve Maki wrote:
On 04/24/19 8:40 AM, jimlux wrote:

I have always just guess when converting a tower to a wire diameter. The original poster seemed concerned that his tower would effect his horizontally polarized HF beams, I have not seen that occur.

I think the question would be about the SSV/BX style tower which is larger at the bottom than the top. Rohn 25 or 45 are "small" compared to a wavelength in the horizontal direction, so they can be modeled as a "fat wire" - just like a cage dipole element, for instance.

The tower in question is 7.5 ft at the bottom and 2 ft at the top 80 ft high. The OP was asking about a 20m Yagi to be mounted at 60 ft, where you'd effectively have big square loops that are about 3 1/2 ft on a side (14 ft total perimeter)  near the antenna, as well as diagonal struts of some length.

The wavelength is 60-70 ft, so those squares are about 1/4 wavelength in perimeter.  If they were 1/10th wavelength, I'd say "model it as a big wire", but that's big enough that there might be some interaction, especially since they will be effectively "inside" the Yagi.

In the scenario where you have a large enough tower that a nearby horizontal antenna is impacted by the tower's horizontal members - is there a fundamental difference between a lattice tower compared to a cylinder of like diameter?

I've assumed no, but now you have me wondering.

-Steve K8LX



Here's what the latest NEC documents say:
"The wire radius a relative to {lambda} is limited by the approximations used in the kernel of the electric field integral equation. NEC uses the thin-wire approximation, neglecting transverse currents on wires and assuming that the axially directed current is uniformly distributed around the segment surface. The acceptability of these approximations depends on both the value of a/{lambda}  and the tendency of the excitation to produce circumferential current or current variation. Unless 2*pi*a/{lambda}  is much less than 1, the validity of these approximations should be considered."


So NEC does not model transverse currents in a conductor - so while you can model a tower as a wire of comparable diameter to the tower, the model will only work for (mostly) fields that are vertically oriented.


A further hiccup in modeling a lattice tower might be the "short segments forming loops" problem.

NEC2 doesn't deal well with very short segments. NEC4 deals with them just fine.

However, for loops where the circumference is <0.002 wavelength, the results may not be valid.  IN practical terms.. if you've got a triangular tower with face width 1 foot (perimeter 3 feet), if the wavelength is >1500 feet, you might have a problem.  Topband and Cheap TV antenna lattice *might* get into trouble.

Modeling 4" reinforcing mesh or a dense rebar lattice might also run into troubles.


_______________________________________________



_______________________________________________
TowerTalk mailing list
TowerTalk@contesting.com
http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
_______________________________________________



_______________________________________________
TowerTalk mailing list
TowerTalk@contesting.com
http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/towertalk
<Prev in Thread] Current Thread [Next in Thread>