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Re: [Amps] Re: Neutral and ground is in how you use them (was SB-220on 2

To: "R. Measures" <r@somis.org>
Subject: Re: [Amps] Re: Neutral and ground is in how you use them (was SB-220on 220V)
From: Gary Schafer <garyschafer@comcast.net>
Reply-to: garyschafer@comcast.net
Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2003 12:30:39 -0500
List-post: <mailto:amps@contesting.com>


R. Measures wrote:


R.Measures wrote:


** The neutral in the 240V outlet for the amplifier is shared with every 120V and every 240V circuit in the house because All of the neutrals connect to the neutral/ground terminal strip in the breaker-box. If I am fortunate, it is that I know Ohm's law good enough to get by.

__ Which is what I do on the 240v outlet for the tetrodes-with-handles mains outlet. // The imbalance current is c. 85mA-avg in the neutral/ground because I utilize one side of the mains-neutral potential to power a half-wave rectified, C-filtered 160VDC supply for operating the high-speed T/R relays. Although there are some who would be alarmed about the potential-drop in 99' of #6 wire at 85mA, I am not one of them.



Rich, I am sure that you know and understand this stuff but some others may not.


1. The biggest reason for having separate ground and neutral wires is to insure safety in case the neutral should open (in the case of a common ground/neutral system like you use.
Even your 85 ma that you are running on your common ground/neutral line can be a hazard. If the ground/neutral line opens anywhere you will have 120 volts at chassis through the transformer primary with enough current to cause electrocution if you are between chassis and some other ground.



** Providing this person was standing in water.



No water necessary. Moderately sweaty palms will more than suffice.




In your system it may not be too likely to happen. However in many wiring installations it can easily happen.

One house that I owned years ago (was a brand new house too) had problems with some of the wiring. Upon further looking I found that just about every outlet in the house had the wires wrapped around the screw terminals loosely as you normally would, but the screws were never turned down! Most of the outlets worked properly as far as I knew. I would have never known if I had not opened them up and looked at them. That is unless I had a fire first!
Suppose in that house I had a 220 outlet with only 3 wires used as you do above. I could have very easily had a poor (guaranteed to be poor!) neutral/ground lead.


If your 220 line had it's ground/neutral connection wired like that and you were using it as a neutral/ground you could very easily have a "hot chassis". I have also seen "electrician" installations where the lugs in the breaker panel where not tightened. Wires slipped into hole but never tightened down. they make a connection but not a reliable one.

It is easy to have a poor outlet connection too. Fingers in the plug not making proper contact. Especially on older / well used outlets.

If any of these things happen on your neutral/ground line then you are sure to have a "hot" chassis because you are asking that line to carry current that is tied to the chassis.

But if you have a separate neutral and ground line then even if you would have a poor connection on ANY of the lines (even the ground line) you would not have a "hot" chassis. Unless of course there were multiple faults.


** If the screws are not tightened on the ground and neutral wires, you would.

2. As to "proper to code installation of wires" you may use any color wire that you wish. Even all black wires. Yes even for ground and neutral! But each end is supposed to be tagged with proper colored tape to identify them.


** I identify them by size. #6 is ground/neutral and the #4s are mains.


I do it in my own stuff mainly to be able to identify what I did several years latter.
If you use 3 conductor Romex for a 220 line (black, white and bare)
the white wire should be marked with red tape on each end. The main reason to do so is to tell someone that may be in that circuit doing repair work that that is a 220 line and not a 120 volt line neutral.


3. A three wire 220 line as above is perfectly fine with the NEC as long as it is used as "hot, hot' ground and no neutral is involved.


** How can neutral be not involved if the not-hot third wire connects to the ground/neutral terminal strip?

The key is that ANY of the wires in the line can become open and NOT cause the chassis to be hot.




A 3 wire 220 line is fine for most of the amplifiers provided there is no 120 volt / neutral requirement.


** I have been using one half of the amplifier's 240vct, 20A circuit to power my 120v radio and soldering iron for the past 28-years.

Not the best idea.




4. I saw someone post earlier that "ground wires and neutral wires were intermingled on the lugs in the breaker panel". Even though the two buss bars are tied together in the panel the proper way (to NEC code) is to connect all the neutral wires to the neutral buss bar and all the ground wires to the ground buss bar and not intermingle them.


** In my General Electric Co. box there is one common strip for all of the neutral and ground wires

It must be a VERY old box.




There is good reason for it.


** Apparently, GE did not think so.

They do now! You can't buy one that doesn't have two separate busses.




Though they may be electrically the same, it is much easier to identify which is which when looking in the crowded panel to try and identify a wire. Also if you have an external main breaker or this panel happens to be a sub panel the ground and neutral would NOT be the same at that point.

5. Yes inspectors do (should) look for properly identified (proper color) wires. You may know what they are on your own work but the next guy that comes along may not know where they are supposed to go unless they are the standard color codes.


** I trust my DMM more than I trust a color.


cheers, Gary


73 Gary K4FMX




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