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Re: [Amps] Skin depth: silver plating of tank circuit coil feasible with

To: g8gsq@f2s.com, amps@contesting.com
Subject: Re: [Amps] Skin depth: silver plating of tank circuit coil feasible with
From: TexasRF@aol.com
Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 17:00:37 EDT
List-post: <amps@contesting.com">mailto:amps@contesting.com>
Are you saying that current takes the path of least resistance? What a  
great concept!
 
That sure explains why insulation on a conductor works.
 
73,
Gerald K5GW
 
 
 
In a message dated 10/4/2010 3:51:01 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  
g8gsq@f2s.com writes:

I recall  an article in RF Design magazine which suggested that the 
rf current moves  away from high resistivity, I think there was 
some maths supporting the  analysis. If the outer surface of a 
(e.g. copper) conductor oxidises, the  article predicted that the 
current just moves deeper into the pure metal  so the difference in 
performance is much less than might be  expected.

Steve

>   Take a look at  http://www.bnk.com/w0qe/inductor_Q_tests.html where I 
> made a bunch of  measurements.
> 
> Silver is a 7% better conductor than copper but  at RF the skin depth is 
> inversely proportional to the conductivity so  the gain you get from 
> heavy silver plating is only about 3.5% to  4%.  You would be better off 
> to just increase the copper wire  size by 1.  As far as beauty is 
> concerned, painting or clear  coating the copper has no effect at HF.  
> All the stuff you hear  about oxides of silver being conductors are BS.
> 
> Larry,  W0QE
> 
> On 10/4/2010 8:01 AM, Carl wrote:
>> -----  Original Message -----
>> From: "Dr. David  Kirkby"<david.kirkby@onetel.net>
>>  To:<amps@contesting.com>
>> Sent: Monday, October 04, 2010 8:08  AM
>> Subject: Re: [Amps] Skin depth: silver plating of tank circuit  coil 
feasible
>> with chemical plating  kits?
>>
>>
>>> On 10/ 4/10 12:42 PM, LB3HC  wrote:
>>>> I am working on some loss estimates for the tank  circuit of my GS35B
>>>> amp. design and I am considering if  silver plating of the tank circuit
>>>> coil is feasible or  not. I intend to use copper tubing intended for
>>>> camping  gas installations in the tank coil(s), as it is readily
>>>>  available. According to VE1ALQ's tool, the 3 times skin depth for  RF
>>>> current on 10 meters wavelength is 36 Microns.   Silver plating kits
>>>> that are available on the market**  typically states a plating
>>>> thickness of 70 micro inches,  which is only 1,7 microns. This is 1/20
>>>> of what is  necessary to have silver down to the 3 x skin depth, if my
>>>>  calculations are correct.
>>>>
>>>> What are  your experiences with silver coated contra non coated tank
>>>>  coils?
>>>>
>>>> Polishing the copper tubing  will reduce the RF skin current resistance
>>>> according to  some sources. Is this true, and in case it is, what are
>>>>  the mechanisms that makes polished copper conduct better (RF) than  
non
>>>> polished  copper?
>>>>
>>>> **
>>>>  
http://www.cool-amp.com/product%20info/COOL-AMP%20One-page%20Info%20Sheet%20&%20inserts%20%28FINAL%2004.30.09%29.pdf
>>>>
>>>>  73
>>>> LB3HC
>>> I don't know the depth, but I  know I had a 2 m anode line silver plated
>>> for  a
>>> dual 4CX250B amplifier. Careful measurements before and  after plating
>>> showed no
>>> statistically  significant difference. The line was brass, which is a
>>>  poorer
>>> conductor than copper, so the difference between  brass+silver should 
have
>>> been
>>> better than  between copper+silver. But it was a waste of time - other 
than
>>>  it
>>> looked nicer!
>>>
>>> A friend got  the plating done free, and I know it was deeper than 
normally
>>>  done,
>>> though I can't recall the  depth.
>>>
>>> You really are wasting your time at 10  m if you think you will improve
>>> efficiency. Anybody that tells  you that it made a difference at that
>>>  frequency
>>> is kidding  themselves.
>>>
>>> If anything, gold plating would be  more useful, as it would stop
>>> oxidation. In
>>>  which case, you need only a very thin coat - forget about skin depth.  
99%
>>> of the
>>> current will be in the copper, not  in the gold, but the gold will stop
>>>  oxidization.
>>>
>>> Oxidization might be one of the  advantages of cleaning the copper, but 
I
>>> don't
>>>  really think it will make much difference until you reach a few  GHz.
>>>
>>> I was once told silver oxide is a  conductor and copper oxide is not, so
>>> that's
>>>  an advantages in using silver. I've never looked in the  professional
>>> literature
>>> to see if that is true  - it may be a lot of rubbish.
>>>
>>>  dave
>>
>> Agree, silver plating is strictly for show up to  some unknown frequency.
>>
>> Ive been running a 2M flat  plate line 3CX1000A7 for over 25 years and 
its
>> still running the  same 1500W with the same tube. Use is limited to 
contests
>> and  interesting band openings.
>>
>> A 4CX250B cavity for 440  ran 250W out when I built it 30 years ago for 
FM
>> use in contests,  it doesnt have many hours on it. I checked it an hour 
ago
>> and its  still the same. Construction is from copper water  pipe.
>>
>> The biggest problem I see in amps is poor RF  connections causing 
crystalized
>> solder joints and increased RF  resistance with the copper or silver 
coil and
>> connecting wiring  getting the blame. If youre going to run real power 
then
>> silver  solder as well as bolt together anything that can be bolted. 
Dont  run
>> #14 or 16 wire to the bandswitch, especially 20M and above. At  a 
minimum use
>> silver bearing solder for all RF  connections.
>>
>> Carl
>>  KM1H
>>
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