Hi Chris,
Many, many thanks. I have heard that the connectors carrying the sense
circuit voltage between LV board and Microcontroller board sometimes get
oxidized/dirty so I did remove them and cleaned them with Deoxit and no joy.
I also changed the pair of 3CX800 with another working pair and same
intermittent faults about once every 3-4 power ups. So that is why I was
convinced it was a problem with the sensing circuit. Before digging into
the amp I wanted to understand how it worked so I could track down which
component had most likely failed.
Before replacing anything I duplicated the entire filament and sensing
circuitry in Multisim Blue (freebee from Mouser a while back) and couldn't
get this to work right. I used a virtual pot to vary the filament current
from 1A to 6 A and the voltage drop across R7 was zero VAC all the time.
After reading your explanation and looking at the schematics again, I
realized I connected the sensing circuit via C27 to the wrong side of R7.
Now corrected, when I vary the filament current virtually from 1A to 10A in
Multisim, I can swing the voltage drop across R7 from about < 1vac to >
6vac.
So now I know at least that I should start by looking at R7 which I think is
a 20year old carbon comp 5W. Next to go would be the polarized caps C26 and
C27 - these are not electrolytics but tantalums and I have heard these from
the 1980's are notorious to fail as well by opening. So I have some good
starting points to work with. I am paranoid about the HV - I have Collins
30S-1 and KWS-1 where I worked on power supply and always one hand behind
back with rubber sole shoes on hihi As to Robby, I just retired and brought
home my miniature Robby which I have had for about 30 years and has followed
me from office to office. Now its permanently in the shack on top of my
KWS-1.
Will keep you posted
73 Jerry
NY2KW
-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Miller [mailto:c_miller_1@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2016 10:49 PM
To: Jerry; amps@contesting.com
Subject: Re: [Amps] Filament monitoring - LOOKING FOR ELMER
Hey there,
Ok, before we go exploring the circuitry a necessary statement, this
amplifier contains voltages that will kill you dead if you put yourself in
contact with them. If you do not have the experience with these multi kilo
volt beasts main power supply, the bias voltages or even the mains AC that
runs around inside, find a local ham with more experience to help you,
preferably in the same room. Or bring it to someone who will do the service
for you. We have lost too many people to the electricity monster. And
believe me you get to watch all the way and feel every second of the pain
that you can not escape from.
Ok now that I am done doing the 'DANGER Will Robinson' thing.
I read through what you had for a description and I think you are pretty on
target with your understanding. But, so that we are both on the same page,
I will walk through it, but I will skip over the maths for the moment.
I took a quick look at the schematic and the 0.3 ohm is in series with the
tube filaments. This does a two fold action, It gives a little limiting
action on the inrush current on power on to help out the tubes from shock
stress and allows a means of sampling the current of course, mostly the
latter. That way, they can get a proportional sample of the current, the
voltage drop on the 0.3 ohm resistor. The sense circuitry in parallel with
the resistor. They take the signal from that resistor, which is AC, and
rectify the the signal to give a dc voltage for the comparator to use, D19
and D20 and associated capacitors. Then U8A compares that to the fixed
value in the other input and flip states from -15 to 15 volts at the
appropriate value. Then, the circuitry on the output of the op amp, D25 and
D24 converts that signal to a TTL level signal for the logic board to use.
Basically, U8A and the voltage divider of R23 and R22 are where the decision
of good current is made. After that is is just an on and off signal.
Now, with your local elmer ham to help you ensure that you don't get
yourself in trouble, and with the power disconnected and the supplies
confirmed discharged (TWICE) measure the loop resistance of the circuit from
J1 pin 1 and 2 with the transformer unplugged, we will be looking at a very
low value here. You will be watching for a shift in the value for lower if
you find a poor connection. Try all the simple actions like reseating the
connectors J7 on the LVPS and J3 on the tube deck to clean the connections
of any possible oxide which would add additional resistance to the 0.3 ohm
part of the power to the tube sense circuit and the sense line. Also the
tubes could benefit from a reseat to clean the tube connections which would
increase the current a little. While the tubes are out, check the value of
the sense resistor R7 and see if it is still within the 0.3 ohm 1% limits,
0.303 to 0.297 ohms. Being that it is sinking a fair amount of heat, it may
have drifted. If that resistor is good, then the sense circuit could be
giving false loss of current indications, active device most likely but one
should scope or multimeter the signal voltage values to isolate the
intermittent component, however to see these signals this would be a LIVE
test and fraught with risk. Robby the robot would be twirling his arms by
this point.
Ok, I will stop. I must be getting old, you may not even know the original
Forbidden Planet series, even in rerun. Mind you there was the movie
remake.....
Chris VE3CEA
-----Original Message-----
From: Jerry
Sent: Tuesday, 5 April, 2016 16:34
To: amps@contesting.com
Subject: [Amps] Filament monitoring - LOOKING FOR ELMER
I am taking every opportunity to learn more and working on my Alpha 87a
always provides a good lesson. I have been getting intermittent faults on
the filament monitor for the 3CX800A7's showing the filament current is low
- suggesting that one of the tubes has an open filament. I know this is not
the case as it is intermittent fault and when not faulted I can get full
legal power. I figure it's an issue with the filament monitoring circuitry.
I understand the basic concept of current monitoring using a parallel
resistive shunt load and feeding that resistive voltage drop into an op amp
to provide a corresponding proportional voltage that could be read by a
microprocessor analog input. The 87a filament monitor per manual is looking
for 3 states, less than 2 amps or more than 4 A and anything in between so
it seems the current sensing method would not need to be too precise.
The transformer's 13.6 vac go via lines labeled 'FIL' and "FIL RETURN"
through the Low Voltage Board, these are passed through to the Tube deck
along with a 3rd line called FIL_SENSE GND. On the Tube Deck, FIL is
connected to one side of the filaments and the other side of the filaments
are grounded. FIL_SENSE GND is connected directly to ground and FIL_RETURN
is connected to ground through a series 0.3 ohm, 5W voltage dropping
resistor. If my take on the filament monitoring circuit is correct, it is
'reading' the current through this 0.3 ohm dropping resistor. First I
don't know why there is a dropping resistor since I read from EIMAC that
these tubes are designed to run only +/- 0.6v ( or better) from 13.5 but
that's a different story I guess.
I cannot figure out how the monitoring circuit is working and would
appreciate some advice. The following link has copies of the tube deck and
LV board schematics. I hope someone can volunteer to be an Elmer for me on
this issue.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/qlih0j20xsv76dx/AAAY2tsr3Mnc2FG7N46kQ7Z7a?dl=0
73 Jerry
NY2KW (ex-K1JOS)
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