Sterling. I know that you are well intentioned and sincere. But you are
making the assumption that Contesters have some desire to want to transform to
be more like the gaming community and that somehow its just better than current
contesting. I am speaking for myself, but likely represent many, we don't.
There are lots of gaming and eSports venues. Contesting doesn't have to be one
of them.
However, that being said. Rather than "pushing up a string" on current contest
organizers. I think you and your groups' efforts would be better served by
using the contest weekend assignment and exchange and basic scoring rules as an
"open source" activity. Sponsor your own contest within a contest that
operates during the weekend and interfaces with the existing contesters but
have your own set of rules. Enter as checklogs to the sponsors and see if the
sponsors will provide all the logs to you for your own scoring and cross
checking.
Then you could game, snipe, social media and whatever else you want to do while
contesting and no one would push back (I don't think at least maybe I am
wrong). And if the effort is at all worth doing, the new bread should bring
more activity in general to the contest weekend and everyone should be happy.
The 100% of your efforts can go into creating instead of convincing or arguing.
Maybe Ray would even be part of it.
Something to think about.
Ed N1UR
________________________________________
From: Sterling Mann [kawfey@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, March 13, 2020 11:47 AM
To: Edward Sawyer
Cc: donovanf@starpower.net; CQ-Contest@contesting.com
Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] Merging Social Media and Contesting
This discourse is giving me a lot of insight as to the future of amateur radio
contesting. I'm a part of a few contest committees and organizing groups, so in
part, I'm building programs for the next generation of ham radio contesters. I
wholly assumed my points of view would not be met with agreements on this list,
but being a part of the youth ham radio culture I tend to talk about this stuff
in an echo chamber that has entirely the opposite points of view as just about
everybody who has responded to me. It's good to hear from the other side, from
the majority of contesters. It's almost a little disillusioning since the
outcry is so fierce here.
The problem with streamers submitting only checklogs and new categories is that
nobody is going to want to force themselves into a non-competitive category so
they can livestream their operation. They're disincentivized to livestream, and
therefore the whole plan of opening up ham radio contesting to the modern era
of hundreds of millions of eSports fans is moot.
I forgot to mention: gaming has a thing called stream sniping, where opponents
try to get an upper hand by watching the streams of a competitor. It's just
like peeking at player 2's screen on Nintendo64 007 Goldeneye multiplayer.
Streamers tend to put long delays or conceal revealing information to combat
this. At eSport tournaments, stream sniping vehemently banned, and almost made
impossible. Some teams have been caught sneaking information about their
opponents strategy or whereabouts to competitors remotely, via earpieces, chat
programs, etc. New rules and monitoring were put into place.
There's also a thing called swatting, where disgruntled viewers report the
streamer to 911 as a terrorist or mass shooter, ending up with a SWAT team at
the streamers front door. This has actually resulted in a few deaths.
Thankfully 911 agencies and SWAT teams are getting smarter about raiding houses
with no prior convictions or criminal history.
The point is two fold: contesting has a parallel with gaming, so a huge
opportunity exists by integrating with that industry, and that cheating is
always a thing, even in eSports, but it can be limited and curtailed while
still keeping the game fair to everybody, streaming or not.
-Sterling N0SSC
On Fri, Mar 13, 2020 at 5:39 AM Edward Sawyer
<EdwardS@sbelectronics.com<mailto:EdwardS@sbelectronics.com>> wrote:
Sterling. If you read through your own email, you have validated basically all
of Frank's violation list and then said well its all still okay. Its not okay.
And Ray does have responsibility for what is happening on his chat bar of his
live stream. He can shit it off because it can't be controlled within the
rules. But that would defeat the point of the social media interaction
wouldn't it. And that the point. Contesting is not social media gaming. If
some people want to promote in as "demo stations" like Ray is doing, wonderful.
But its either a checklog or its a new category.
Ed N1UR
________________________________________
From: CQ-Contest
[cq-contest-bounces+edwards=sbelectronics.com@contesting.com<mailto:sbelectronics.com@contesting.com>]
On Behalf Of Sterling Mann [kawfey@gmail.com<mailto:kawfey@gmail.com>]
Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2020 10:38 PM
To: donovanf@starpower.net<mailto:donovanf@starpower.net>
Cc: CQ-Contest@contesting.com<mailto:CQ-Contest@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] Merging Social Media and Contesting
Frank, we have differing opinions regarding the judgement of the W2RE's
actions and the intent of the rules.
His CQs, exchanges, and solicitations were not relayed over the
internet. *"Contacts
made through repeaters, digipeaters, or gateways are not permitted. This
applies to all forms of active relays or repeaters"* is saying the contact
may only take place without relays. No contact was made using the stream.
To do this, an S&P who could not hear W2RE but W2RE could hear the S&Per
would have to entirely use the audio of the stream to complete the contact.
However, livestreams are always on a fairly significant delay (typically
30s), so one could not make a real-time QSO with him solely by listening to
him on the stream. https://youtu.be/aydTZN4nLfU?t=20005 is one case where
someone said "love the youtube channel" but I guarantee the S&Per made the
QSO entirely via amateur radio due to this delay.
Nor was he soliciting contacts via the stream. Solicitation implies that he
was asking people to work him on a non-amateur means of communication, but
I don't think that's the case here. To solicit a QSO, he would need to give
a potential contact his frequency. Arguably he could have also said "find
me on 20m" or "find my spots" and that may have been a violation. He says
that he's at the bottom of the band here: https://youtu.be/aydTZN4nLfU?t=97
and to look on the dx cluster here: https://youtu.be/aydTZN4nLfU?t=623. I
do think saying that is not compliant to the rules, but I don't think
posting a stream of his operation is automatically solicitation.
The video does not show his frequency, which would have been a clear
violation, but others independently posted his run freq to the chat after
finding it on the cluster. Ideally, that should have been deleted, but I
don't think W2RE is responsible for what other people are saying.
Personally, I'm in agreement with others that say an unlimited category
would be good here. Ideally the self-spotting rule would not apply to
unlimited, keeping us from having to think too hard about what
self-spotting is.
Additionally, Ray seems to be aware of the chat in the beginning but later
on, as they discuss what frequency he's on, he seems to ignore it. It may
have been put out of his sight, in which case he's not responsible for
viewers conspiring together to work him. At least I don't think he is. But
this is where the problem has it's greatest merit - does the stream give
him an advantage over other operators? Averaged out over time, I don't
really think it does.
The only rule I could see him potentially violating is giving stations that
work him a non-amateur means of verifying the information in their QSO. An
S&Per might botch the QSO, be watching the stream, wait 30s after the QSO,
and hear Ray "repeat" it on stream. But is that on Ray, or on the other op?
I would argue the S&Per is breaking the rules because that person is using
a non-amateur means to complete the QSO, exactly like if the S&Per texted
W2RE what his exchange is. It's analogous to a gun manufacturer being
liable for deaths caused by their guns. The catch is in the texting case,
W2RE is an accomplice to the S&Pers violation. On a stream, is W2RE an
accomplice in the same way? You would have to say that W2REs purpose for
the stream is to give his S&Pers a second chance, but the evidence doesn't
lead me to that conclusion.
Jeez. I spend way too much time writing emails on this list. I'm sorry to
write a brick of text but this is CQ-contest, and it's the one place on the
world wide web full of other contesters where discussions like these can be
hashed out into action.
-Sterling N0SSC
On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 8:36 PM
<donovanf@starpower.net<mailto:donovanf@starpower.net>> wrote:
> T his video of the RHR Live Stream reveals violations of four General
> Rules for all ARRL Contests:
>
>
> www.youtube.com/watch?v=aydTZN4nLfU<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aydTZN4nLfU>
>
>
>
>
> What are the specific violations shown in the video?
>
>
>
> 1. CQs (i.e., soliciting a contact) were relayed via the internet
> 2. Exchanges (a necessary half of every QSO) were relayed via the
> internet
> 3. end-of-QSO solications (i.e., QRZs) were relayed via the internet
> 4. His 14155 frequency was shown multiple times during the live stream
> 5.
>
>
> What specific General Rules for all ARRL Contests were violated?
>
>
>
>
> 3.9. Contacts made through repeaters, digipeaters, or gateways are not
> permitted
>
>
> 1. 3.9.1. This applies to all forms of active relays or repeaters.
> 2. 3.10. The use of non-Amateur Radio means of communication (for
> example, Internet or telephone) to solicit a contact (or contacts) during
> the contest period is not permitted.
> 3. 3.14. In contests where spotting nets are permissible, spotting
> your own station or requesting another station to spot you is not
> permitted.
>
>
> 73
> Frank
> W3LPL
>
>
>
>
>
> 1.
> 2.
> 3.
> 4.
> 5.
> 6.
> 1.
> 7.
> 8.
> 9.
> _______________________________________________
> CQ-Contest mailing list
> CQ-Contest@contesting.com<mailto:CQ-Contest@contesting.com>
> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/cq-contest
>
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