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Re: [RFI] RFI issues in electric (or hybrid) vehicles

To: rfi@contesting.com
Subject: Re: [RFI] RFI issues in electric (or hybrid) vehicles
From: "Roger (K8RI)" <k8ri@rogerhalstead.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 20:51:59 -0400
List-post: <rfi@contesting.com">mailto:rfi@contesting.com>
On 4/10/2012 6:40 PM, Dale Svetanoff wrote:
> List mates:
>
> The link below leads you to an article from Electronic Design magazine.  It 
> concerns RFI issues in electric drive vehicles (and, by extension, hybrids, 
> as well).  The primary focus is on the interference caused to the 
> entertainment system ("broadcast") radios within the vehicles.  My personal 
> view is that the situation is almost surely applicable to communications 
> radios, as well, especially those used for HF communications.
>
> Here is the link:

We have a Prius Hybrid: No RFI issues to either the entertainment center 
or the rig.
Most of the Hybrids I've seen/driven had too small a battery and light 
gauge wiring to run much of a radio. The battery is so small the 
manufacturer recommends you do not wire directly to the battery, but 
either through the switch, or a relay that is energized only when the 
ignition is on.  Two other hams have newer models and they do not have 
any RFI issues either.  I'd suggest a heavy duty battery placed in back 
along with a much larger alternator to keep it charged.

The first sentence is a blanket statement that is not true: "To enable 
radio reception in electric vehicles, manufacturers must install filters 
and insulate cables, since electrical signals will otherwise interfere 
with music and speech transmissions" as I can point to 3 examples from 
different years that have no problems in either the car entertainment 
system, or the ham rigs.  I can understand filters when necessary and 
shielding, but "Insulation"?

Therefor this appears as an article that was not well thought out or 
researched.

>
> http://www.wirelessdesignmag.com/ShowPR.aspx?PUBCODE=055&ACCT=0000100&ISSUE=1204&RELTYPE=IN&PRODCODE=00000&PRODLETT=AI.html?et_cid=2583485&et_rid=60851216&linkid=http%3a%2f%2fwww.wirelessdesignmag.com%2fShowPR%7ePUBCODE%7e055%7eACCT%7e0000100%7eISSUE%7e1204%7eRELTYPE%7eIN%7ePRODCODE%7e00000%7ePRODLETT%7eAI&CommonCount=0
>
> (Note: Due to length of the link, I hope it all comes thru the reflector 
> intact.  I am in hopes that you will be able to click anywhere on the link 
> and succeed in getting to the article.)
It works fine in Thunderbird.
>
> To be honest, I was disappointed in the article's lack of substantial 
> technical detail.  (Although Electronic Design is not a publication devoted 
> specifically to EMC/EMI issues, it is targeted to the electronic engineering 
> community.  Therefore, I was a bit surprised that this article is pretty much 
> at the lay person level.  Nevertheless, I felt that some of the comments 
> might be of interest to readers on this reflector.)
The first sentence being a blanket statement that is not true hurt the 
credibility of the article and author.

>
> One aspect of the automotive RFI issue did catch my interest: A primary 
> dictum in RFI control is that you do all that you can to contain an RFI 
> source (in this case, the power converter) so as to minimize propagation of 
> interference via direct radiation or via the associated wires and cables.  
> ("Containment" also means that I/O lines should be well-filtered.)  Note that 
> nowhere in the article is containment of the source mentioned.  Instead, a 
> lot of effort has been placed on routing of wires and insulation of the high 
> power drive motor from the chassis of the vehicle.  (These motors are 
> typically electronically commutated DC types, no brushes.)  One must guess 
> that size, weight, and cost probably factor into the decisions to work 
> placement and isolation issues, rather than containment.
>
> I, for one, would be delighted if someone in the automotive industry would 
> reply to this posting with some supporting information as to what is being 
> done in today's electric and hybrid drive vehicles for RFI control, 
> especially as regards communications (be it for broadcast or two-way 
> applications).  I would also welcome comments from anyone associated with the 
> Fraunhofer Institute and the work described in the article.
>
> Finally, I am wondering if any list members have installed either a ham rig 
> (HF and/or VHF/UHF) or a scanner in an electric drive nor hybrid vehicle, and 
> if so, were there any significant RFI issues to contend with?  Please post so 
> that we can all share in your experiences.  Thanks.

As I said above, I know of three hams who drive a Prius (all different 
years). Ours is one of the oldest ones, while a friend drives on about a 
year old.  No RFI issues at all.


73

Roger (K8RI)

>
> 73, Dale
> WA9ENA
> Sr. EMC Engineer
>
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