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Re: [RFI] Other Noise Challenge For Ed!

To: rfi@contesting.com
Subject: Re: [RFI] Other Noise Challenge For Ed!
From: David Cole <dave@nk7z.net>
Reply-to: dave@nk7z.net
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2015 09:05:03 -0700
List-post: <rfi@contesting.com">mailto:rfi@contesting.com>
Frank,

Could you supply some data of what you use, and how you use it?  I know
it would help me to see what someone with more experience does, and
uses.  

-- 
Thanks and 73's,
For equipment, and software setups and reviews see:
www.nk7z.net

For MixW support see;
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/mixw/info
For Dopplergram information see:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/dopplergram/info
For MM-SSTV see:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/MM-SSTV/info


On Wed, 2015-07-29 at 11:44 -0400, Frank N. Haas KB4T wrote:
> I am not an engineer. I do have many years of successful DFing
> experience locating a wide variety of interference sources. 
> 
> The method David used to locate his 7 MHz source in an area supplied
> by underground utilities is more sophisticated than my approach and
> likely resulted in finding the source faster than I would have.
> However, the underlying concept is the same as I have often promoted
> on the RFI list. 
> 
> That is, locating a source can be accomplished by using the right
> tools to hear the source and get directional indications that will
> lead you to it. In short, DFing the source, no matter what frequency
> it may be on. 
> 
> 
> If an interference signal is very strong (over S9) on the affected
> receiver and it is present continuously, it should be easy to pinpoint
> using good tools. Directional antennas are available for all
> frequencies between 1.6 MHz and 1 GHz. While it would be nice if one
> antenna system could do it all, that simply isn't the case.
> Fortunately, there are good receivers with signal strength indicators
> and built-in attenuators that cover that frequency range. Antennas
> that cover segments of the spectrum can be built or bought. 
> 
> 
> I work as an Interference Investigator for a large electric utility in
> Florida. Over the years, I have put together a small but effective
> collection of antennas and receivers that allow me to search for
> sources all across the spectrum. It has been said that DFing signals
> in the 1.6 to 30 MHz range can be challenging. Without good tools,
> that statement is true. But good tools for HF DFing can be had for
> less than $500. 
> 
> 
> This is an area where ham radio clubs can shine again. Decades ago,
> radio clubs had committees dedicated to helping hams who had "TVI"
> problems. TeleVision Interference was a pretty common problem long
> ago. Modern conveniences like Cable TV and Satellite TV have largely
> eliminated the problem. Instead we have the opposite problem today.
> Our stations are being dramatically impacted by consumer electronic
> devices and faulty power line devices. Instead of our neighbors coming
> to us complaining, the tables have turned and now we often have to
> approach our neighbors. 
> 
> 
> As has been recently pointed out here, approaching "lay persons" about
> interference problems is an art all its own. Radio clubs can usually
> afford to build a collection of good tools. Regular practice builds
> competence. The increasing number of interference issues provide ample
> opportunities for practice. Club members with great interpersonal
> skills can be the diplomats who intercede and smooth the process of
> resolution. 
> 
> 
> I see Interference Resolution as an area that can build radio club
> involvement and participation. I still firmly believe that increasing
> radio spectrum pollution is a problem for which the ham radio
> community must be better equipped. 
> 
> 
> For Joe, if there is no local club or local interference support,
> building an HF DFing kit, practicing its use and getting competent at
> zeroing in on sources may be fun, if not necessary. 
> 
> 
> Frank N. Haas KB4T
> 
> Utility Interference Investigator
> 
> Florida
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at 2:06 PM, David Cole <dave@nk7z.net> wrote:
>         Hi Ed,
>         Sorry, but I no longer have it...  It was ugly and hand drawn
>         contour
>         lines...  I now use Google Maps and GIMP to draw things...
>         They look
>         much better that way!
>         
>         If you want, I can send you, (not on the list), the package of
>         data I
>         collect for the FCC should a RFI situation get out of hand,
>         and need to
>         be reported...
>         
>         BTW, the walk around was at 135 MHz, just above the Aircraft
>         band in AM
>         mode...  I use one of those little MFJ 135 MHz broadband VHF
>         beams,
>         works like a champ most of the time.
>         
>         --
>         Thanks and 73's,
>         For equipment, and software setups and reviews see:
>         www.nk7z.net
>         
>         For MixW support see;
>         http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/mixw/info
>         For Dopplergram information see:
>         http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/dopplergram/info
>         For MM-SSTV see:
>         http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/MM-SSTV/info
>         
>         
>         On Tue, 2015-07-28 at 17:57 +0000, Hare, Ed W1RFI wrote:
>         > I'd love to see that graph, or the measured data, if you
>         still have it. It may be useful on RFI web pages or
>         publications.
>         >
>         > -----Original Message-----
>         > From: RFI [mailto:rfi-bounces@contesting.com] On Behalf Of
>         David Cole
>         > Sent: Monday, July 27, 2015 10:14 PM
>         > To: rfi@contesting.com
>         > Subject: Re: [RFI] Other Noise Challenge For Ed!
>         >
>         > Joe,
>         >
>         > A few years ago, I had a RFI source from an area with
>         underground utilities.  I located a source by driving to each
>         underground transformer and taking a reading at 7 MHz, using a
>         short antenna and a standard procedure for pointing etc.  I
>         wanted to have a standard way of reading the signal levels.  I
>         did the same thing at each transformer I could find, then took
>         the data and plotted it on a Google map of the area, then hand
>         drew contour curves to the various S meter levels I had
>         gotten...  Much to my surprise it formed a great big target
>         ellipse.  I think I got very lucky, but it might be worth a
>         try for you.  I then walked around with a 123MHz beam and
>         TH-F6 in the suspect area.
>         >
>         > Found the house in short order...  Contacted the owner, and
>         a few weeks later the RFI was gone.
>         >
>         > As Ed said, in each case, "First Contact" is so important...
>         If you come on strong, and tell the person they are in
>         violation of anything, they get really quiet...  If you
>         approach them as a neighbor, things go really well...
>         >
>         > --
>         > Thanks and 73's,
>         > For equipment, and software setups and reviews see:
>         > www.nk7z.net
>         >
>         > For MixW support see;
>         > http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/mixw/info
>         > For Dopplergram information see:
>         > http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/dopplergram/info
>         > For MM-SSTV see:
>         > http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/MM-SSTV/info
>         >
>         >
>         > On Mon, 2015-07-27 at 18:09 -0700, Joe Wolfe wrote:
>         > >
>         > > Ed, perhaps you can shed some sense to this.  Up until 4
>         years ago, I
>         > > had no noise to speak of...1 to 2 s units, tops.
>         > >
>         > > Then, one November day, I turned on the radio to 40 meters
>         (7.205), at
>         > > noon, and was blasted with a 20 over *white noise*.
>         > >
>         > > Did not go away, and it permeated 75 meters as well.  20
>         and 17 are
>         > > tolerable, 15 and up have acceptable noise levels.
>         > >
>         > > Again, this is just very loud white noise, unwavering in
>         pitch.
>         > >
>         > > I hooked my radio (Kenwood TS-2000) to a battery, then
>         switched of the
>         > > main breaker, so no power was present in the house.  Noise
>         was unchanged.
>         > >
>         > > Further research revealed:  On 40, the noise dropped to
>         below 3 S
>         > > units, and stayed low all night.  Around 9-10 in the
>         morning, the
>         > > noise starts to rise, reaching its crescendo around noon.
>         75 meter
>         > > noise does not decrease much, at any time of day or night.
>         > >
>         > > I have walked the neighborhood with the AM radio, Kenwood
>         TH-F6A, and
>         > > found....nothing.
>         > >
>         > > The noise is present in all HF radios I have, Drake's,
>         Yaesu's, even
>         > > tried an ICom..
>         > >
>         > > Mobile HF, drive 2 miles away, and the noise is gone.
>         > >
>         > > There are no overhead wires in my neighborhood.  There is
>         a high
>         > > tension line 2 miles from the house, but it is quiet it's
>         8 miles run,
>         > > down to town from the crest of the mountain it comes
>         across from the
>         > > North.  (I have driven it)
>         > >
>         > > I run an off-center fed dipole, 6 to 80 meters, at 20 feet
>         on 1 side,
>         > > 26 feet the other side.  (Fence is on a drop down berm..we
>         live in the
>         > > hills (Each house in the neighborhood is 6 to 8 feet
>         higher [or lower]
>         > > than its
>         > > neighbor]) I have no problems being heard anywhere, on any
>         band,
>         > > but...heh, if you can't hear, what the sense?!!!
>         > >
>         > > Thoughts?
>         > >
>         > > Joe Wolfe - W7RKN
>         > >
>         > > _______________________________________________
>         > > RFI mailing list
>         > > RFI@contesting.com
>         > > http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/rfi
>         >
>         > _______________________________________________
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>         _______________________________________________
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> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Frank N. Haas KB4T
> Utility Interference Investigator
> Florida
> 
> 
> 

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