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Re: [RFI] pleasant surprise today from Solar Edge

To: "r55stan@gmail.com" <r55stan@gmail.com>, 'Tony' <73guddx@gmail.com>, 'Rfi List' <rfi@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: [RFI] pleasant surprise today from Solar Edge
From: "Hare, Ed W1RFI" <w1rfi@arrl.org>
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2020 14:50:28 +0000
List-post: <mailto:rfi@contesting.com>
We have come a long way, but still have a ways to go. Fortunately, we are 
dealing with a company that is holding space for all of this and willing to 
work towards better and better solutions.

The initial installations were pretty bad.  They simply ran a single wire 
between anything that was series strung, which formed a giant loop.  The FCC 
rules on emission control ONLY conducted emissions ON THE AC MAINS, so any 
noise present on that loop did not have a specific limit.  So, the early 
systems complied with the letter of the law.

Over time, Solar Edge has taken a number of steps, each of which resulted in 
quieter systems and effective correction to more systems.  This included 
replacing the loop with twisted pair, not in a loop configuration, the addition 
of common-mode chokes, improvements to the common-mode choking, redesigned 
optimizers, redesigned inverters and ongoing work that Solar Edge is 
undertaking, working with W1VLF, trying new improvements. Honestly, this is 
above and beyond what most companies do and I, for one, am appreciative.  This 
whole thing has gotten the attention of the industry in general, and W1VLF has 
been contacted by Generac, another solar manufacturer, looking to work with 
ARRL to help them design a system that will be a gold standard for low-noise 
operation.  Patience is paying off, albeit in steps and timelines smaller than 
any of us really like.,

There is also the question of what harmful interference actually is, and cases 
where there is S9 noise only when a beam antenna is pointed at a house is 
typically seen differently by regulators, industry and amateur operators.  I 
have said several times here, we are all better off not having a line in the 
sand because if FCC ever were forced to draw that line, I can say with 
certainty that we are not going to like it.  FCC has rarely been required to 
even assess an individual circumstance as harmful interference, and when it 
has, that assessment has been all over the map.  I do know they will consider 
the level of interference, the frequency occupancy, a comparison of that level 
to median values of man-made noise (typically S6+ on lower bands, btw...), 
whether the amateur can make use of frequency agility, how often it occurs, 
time of day and possibly even the phase of the moons orbiting Saturn.

New solutions coming out of Solar Edge have been slow, but steady, so at this 
point, I an awaiting the next round to result from Solar Edge working with 
W1VLF.  I think that this is the stage at which I or VLF may want to do a site 
visit to a few locations, to see just what has been done, what can be done and 
to possibly try new improvements.

And thanks for pointing out the value of our work.  This is just the tip of the 
iceberg, as ARRL staff work with manufacturers like this, with industry groups, 
with the FCC, with entities like the IEEE, as industry standards and practices 
are developed that could impact amateur radio.  As was done in this case, we 
don't always have a grand sweeping victory (although that is possible, too), 
but manage to ensure that information about amateur radio is available as 
standards are developed, ARRL staff and other amateurs participate in working 
groups and, most important, as decisions are made by industry, ARRL has a seat 
at the table.  We don't hold seats in the back of the room, but at the head of 
the table. I am the IEEE EMC Society Vice President for Standards in a 
volunteer capacity, and we have other amateur volunteers serving as liaisons 
between the EMC Society, ARRL and other industry groups.  For me, that and the 
things ARRL does to bring amateur radio into classrooms, into variou
 s EmComm organizations and similar work overshadows whether I think that ARRL 
made the right decision wrt QSL bureau costs of the rules for the Whoop and 
Holler contest.  Okay, soapbox off.   But if any of this does encourage people 
to join, include a note that explains your reasons for joining, and send a copy 
of that to your ARRL Division Director.  Those notes do get read and passed 
around, and Directors make policy decisions based on what members say is 
important.  

Ed Hare, W1RFI
ARRL Lab  Manager



-----Original Message-----
From: RFI <rfi-bounces+w1rfi=arrl.org@contesting.com> On Behalf Of 
r55stan@gmail.com
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2020 1:16 AM
To: 'Tony' <73guddx@gmail.com>; 'Rfi List' <rfi@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: [RFI] pleasant surprise today from Solar Edge

If SolarEdge applies their fix and the noise is still too high, it is possible 
they missed one panel.  That happened with one  of my neighbors about two years 
ago.  They finally got it right on the fourth service call.  Now I don't have 
any RFI from that house.  So, get them to come back, pull off every panel and 
check that every optimizer has added ferrites on both the inputs and outputs 
and the wires are twisted.

Randy KQ6RS

-----Original Message-----
From: RFI <rfi-bounces+r55stan=gmail.com@contesting.com> On Behalf Of Tony
Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2020 9:53 PM
To: Rfi List <rfi@contesting.com>
Subject: Re: [RFI] pleasant surprise today from Solar Edge

James:

Solar Edge used the same suppression techniques on my neighbors installation 
and it only reduced the noise from S-9 +15 db to S-9 which is still very high.

I suspect that the suppression would be more effective on installations that 
emit lower-levels of RFI so it would be interesting to know how strong the 
noise was prior to the suppression being installed and what the results were 
afterward.

The distance from your antenna to the solar panels is another factor so it 
would be helpful to know that as well.

Congratulations.

Tony -K2MO



On 9/23/2020 9:29 PM, WW3S wrote:
> My neighbor across the street had a 21 panel Solar Edge array 
> installed in May 2019, 6.5 kw I believe. I had the 18kc noise spikes, 
> and the 200kc spaced optimizer noise. After working with Paul at the 
> ARRL, who contacted the Solar Edge technical team on my behalf, Solar 
> Edge committed to fixing the problem. They were supposed to come out 
> in the spring, but of course current events prevented that. A visit 
> was scheduled for early September, but the local crew needed to 
> cancel. So I was suprised to see their van at the neighbors bright and 
> early this morning. While the panels were disconnected, I took so more 
> sdr sample screenshots, of course no noise.  The engineer from Solar 
> Edge appeared, and we had a brief chat about the course of action they 
> were going to take. replace all 21 optimizers, twist all the DC 
> wiring, and install ferrites on all the leads in to the optimizers. I 
> had to leave for an appt this afternoon, and they were gone when I got 
> back, but......it appears to be successful !!! The 200kc optimizer 
> noise certainly is gone, no notice of it at all on the sdr, and the 
> other noise seems gone as well. I only had a short time to check, but 
> it certainly seems to have knocked most, if not all, of the noise 
> down.....(insert emoji for jumping on soapbox) No matter how you feel 
> about the ARRL, they are really the only game in town as far as 
> supporting the amateur radio community with regards to RFI and 
> spectrum defense. If you can spare a few bucks, send it to them. If 
> you are not a member, think about joining.
> _______________________________________________
> RFI mailing list
> RFI@contesting.com
> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/rfi


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