I have thought about doing that, but there are a lot of reasons not to.
The first is cost-vs-benefit, and it is more the latter than the former that is
the showstopper. Products change all the time, so if we were to spend many
tens of hours testing a few products, at about 2 hours per product, counting
the time to identify one, choose one, obtain it, unpack it, set it up for
testing, test it, document and put it away to be stored for a while, although
that has value, more than likely, two years later, it would no longer be
available. I can't count the number of times that I have gone to Walmart to buy
something I bought a year ago, only to find that the exact model is not being
sold any longer, and something slightly different, or significantly different,
has taken its place.
Zak Lau once researched the Walmart web page alone and found over 50,000
electronic products being offered for sale. There is no way anyone could test
them all, or even know which ones to select. Even more units are offered on
Amazon and every one has an interference potential.
Even if we find products that are really good from a noise perspective, there
is no certainty that they are going to stay that way. ARRL has seen products
that once complied no longer comply and we sometimes find filtering components
in the the product removed and replaced with jumpers. I can see the overseas
factory now saying, "Oh, we are out of those inductors and can't get
replacements, but it works just fine if we replace them with wires, so ship
them!" It happens all the time, by the reports we have seen and a few units we
have tested. Also, the big box stores contract to buy large lots of items and
when they are near stock out, they either re-order what could possibly be a
changed design, or put it out for bid again, maybe with a different company and
I have seen them marketed under the same model number, even more dramatically
different.
Imagine the scenario if a neighbor installs new LED bulbs and you have noise
and you go to any page, ARRL or other, recommending a particular product. Your
neighbor goes out and buys 20 of the lights at Wal-get and the noise is still
present because the design has changed. Not good.
So, ARRL's advice is still the best advice: Go buy one of a few different
replacements and see which one(s) are noise-free. The work the League did was
still valuable, because we did find that the vast majority of products sold in
the big box stores (Walmart, Target, HD and Lowe's, for example) were compliant
and that there was not a major EMC problem on our doorstep.
The issue remains that most of our noise problems come from power lines, solar
and illegal grow lights way over the limits, or from the aggregate of many
devices around us.
Ed Hare, W1RFI
ARRL Lab
________________________________
From: RFI <rfi-bounces+ehare=arrl.org@contesting.com> on behalf of Gary K9GS
<k9gs@gjschwartz.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 1, 2022 12:15 AM
To: RFI <rfi@contesting.com>
Cc: Hare, Ed, W1RFI <w1rfi@arrl.org>
Subject: Re: [RFI] IR Illuminator for Security Cameras
Has the ARRL ever considered putting together a database of "ARRL certified"
devices?This would be very useful when heading to the big-box store to buy
lighting or the appliance store to buy a new appliance or furnace. 73,Gary K9GS
-------- Original message --------From: "Hare, Ed, W1RFI" <w1rfi@arrl.org>
Date: 1/31/22 9:09 AM (GMT-05:00) To: Michael Tope <W4EF@dellroy.com>, David
Eckhardt <davearea51a@gmail.com> Cc: RFI <rfi@contesting.com> Subject: Re:
[RFI] IR Illuminator for Security Cameras We have measured a number of LED
bulbs here in the ARRL Lab. They range from essentially zero noise to way over
the FCC limits. The good news is that all of the ones we have tested *so far*
that are being sold in the big box stores do meet the FCC emissions limits. The
outliers are being sold elsewhere, including eBay. One just sent to us for
testing is 26 dB over the emissions limits. It is causing bad interference.
With an actual interference case and measurements well above the FCC limits,
ARRL is going to file a formal complaint on this one. Of note, meeting the FCC
limits is not a guarantee at all of no interference. The limits below 30 MHz
are for noise conducted onto the AC mains only. There are no limits for
radiated emissions below 30 MHz or limits on the amount of noise that can be
put on the secondary of devices such as some kitchen lights that have a power
supply and run wires to the actual LED bulbs. Generally, the rules do prevent a
lot of interference, and if there is interference from a neighbor's device, it
is going to be close to you and easier to find. To be marketed, several
criteria apply.* For LED bulbs and systems to be marketed to consumers, the
design must be tested by the manufacturer to meet the FCC Part 15 Class B
limits. For fluourescent bulbs, they must meet Part 18 consumer limits. Class
A or non-consumer devices to do exist, bt they are supposed to be marketed only
for use in commercial environments. Lowe's and Home Depot sell "commercial"
units openly, so be wary.* They must be marketed with the FCC logo and the
language described earlier on a label on the product or, if the product is
small, in the documentation.* These are the responsibility of the manufacturer
and marketer. The end user of the product is responsible under FCC rules for
using it in a way that does not cause harmful interference to licensed radio.
The latter point is really hard to communicate to neighbors, so be prepared to
explain why a device they just bought at Home Depot is in violation of some
federal law that they don't understand.Ed Hare, W1RFIARRL Lab-----Original
Message-----From: RFI <rfi-bounces+w1rfi=arrl.org@contesting.com> On Behalf Of
Michael TopeSent: Sunday, January 30, 2022 2:53 PMTo: David Eckhardt
<davearea51a@gmail.com>Cc: RFI <rfi@contesting.com>Subject: Re: [RFI] IR
Illuminator for Security CamerasThank you, Dave. Yeah, I understand that this
warning is somewhat perfunctory, but it was so prominently displayed in the
manual and a friend was just complaining about RFI from LED lights. Those two
things got me to wondering if these things (IR LED arrays) are a know problem
child, or just one of the many things that can be a problem, but not always are
a problem. This one takes +12V input, so I suppose the risk is low that the
array itself is going to be an interference source. I assume the RFI problem
with LED lights is actually the switchers that supply them rather the the
semiconductors themselves and I can always use a cleaner external supply if the
one that comes with this unit is junk.73, Mike W4EF.........................On
1/30/2022 11:03 AM, David Eckhardt wrote:> There is a standard FCC paragraph
required for all Part 15, Class B > (Home and Small Office) products. It's
required by FCC. No big thing.>> Here is the required statement:>> This
equipment has been tested and found to comply with the limits for > a Class B
digital device, pursuant to part 15 of the FCC Rules. These > limits are
designed to provide reasonable protection against harmful > interference in a
residential installation. This equipment generates, > uses and can radiate
radio frequency energy and, if not installed and > used in accordance with the
instructions, may cause harmful > interference to radio communications.
However, there is no guarantee > that interference will not occur in a
particular installation. If this > equipment does cause harmful interference to
radio or television > reception, which can be determined by turning the
equipment off and > on, the user is encouraged to try to correct the
interference by one > or more of the following measures:>> * Reorient or
relocate the receiving antenna.> * Increase the separation between the
equipment and receiver.> * Connect the equipment into an outlet on a circuit
different from> that to which the receiver is connected.> * Consult the
dealer or an experienced radio/TV technician for help.>>> Dave - WØLEV>> On
Sun, Jan 30, 2022 at 6:56 PM Michael Tope <W4EF@dellroy.com> wrote:>> I
have a couple of south facing security cameras that I have tucked> under
the soffits of my high desert cabin so they don't get baked> by the>
high desert sun. The tradeoff for this is that I am getting glare off> the
soffit from the camera's built-in IR LED arrays which spoils the> night
vision image quality. I am thinking of purchasing some> external IR>
LED arrays to solve this problem.>> I found a positive review of this
illuminator, but I got a little> worried when I saw the FCC part 15 warning
prominently displayed> in the> user manual:>>
https://www.amazon.com/CMVision-IRP12-850nm-WideAngle-Power-Illuminator/dp/B00Q156IPE/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&qid=1503002750&sr=8-1&keywords=irp12-850&linkCode=sl1&tag=stf03-20&linkId=1ea87920d2d4d067e723c3100182acbe>
> <https://www.amazon.com/CMVision-IRP12-850nm-WideAngle-Power-Illuminat>
or/dp/B00Q156IPE/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&qid=1503002750&sr=8-1&keyword>
s=irp12-850&linkCode=sl1&tag=stf03-20&linkId=1ea87920d2d4d067e723c3100>
182acbe>>> I am not aware of any interference from the IR LED arrays that
are> built> into the cameras, but just in case these illuminators are
more> problematic I thought I would run this by the reflector before I>
press> the "add to cart" button.>> Thanks,>> Mike
W4EF.................>> _______________________________________________>
RFI mailing list> RFI@contesting.com>
http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/rfi>>>> --> *Dave - WØLEV*> /*Just
Let Darwin Work*/>_______________________________________________RFI mailing
listRFI@contesting.comhttp://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/rfi_______________________________________________RFI
mailing listRFI@contesting.comhttp://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/rfi
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