I think all of the above mentioned rigs cost too damn much money. I'll take
a cheap older Ten Tec anytime, and have just as much fun as you guys with
multiple $3K rigs.
What is this, a piss in contest? The kid with the most toy's wins?
Somebody is always gonna be better than you.
Steve KA9MOT
"One man with courage makes a majority." ~ Andrew Jackson
On Dec 10, 2015 6:11 PM, "Darrell Bellerive VE7IU" <ve7iu@runbox.com> wrote:
> I disagree. The comparison is quite valid as it depends on the criteria
> you are comparing. In my case my shortlist of rigs was the K3, Eagle, and
> TS-590S. I chose the Eagle. Since then the K3S and TS-590SG have come out.
> Not sure if I would choose the Eagle again, it would be a tough decision.
>
> For my criteria all three rigs were very close. For others, different
> criteria such as price, spectrum displays, etc., may be more important and
> change the rigs on the shortlist.
>
> I considered the K3 because of its performance and support, not its
> feature set. I most likely would not use a great number of its features or
> adjust many menu setting, leaving things at the default. It would just be
> extra baggage that I would have to take to get the criteria that are
> important to me.
>
> 73, Darrell VE7IU
>
> On 15-12-10 03:48 PM, george fritkin via TenTec wrote:
>
>> Rick you are comparing apples with oranges. The Eagle is a basic radio
>> with limited features {I have 2}. The K3 and K3S {I have 2 K3 and 1 K3S}
>> are far more complex radios with many many features. If you had internet
>> access you could have snagged the manual.
>> Bottom line is Elecraft is going gang busters and Ten Tec well enough said
>> George, W6GF
>>
>>
>> On Thursday, December 10, 2015 1:29 PM, "rick@dj0ip.de"
>> <Rick@DJ0IP.de> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Darrell,
>>
>> I'm in between you and Jim.
>>
>> You identified the problem yourself.
>> The newer generation have too many features to give them all a knob or
>> button, and there isn't enough space on the front panel to label a switch
>> with all the features.
>>
>> At the same time, THE biggest thing I disliked about the K3 was that I
>> could
>> not operate it without a manual.
>> In fact at first I used both the manual and the tiny Quick Guide (those
>> $10
>> specials). Sometimes the manual explained stuff better, sometimes the
>> guide
>> was better.
>>
>> Let's backtrack; prior to purchasing the K3, I was one of the operators
>> with
>> Tim (K3LR) at a field day site.
>> During the grave yard shift where most people were home in bed, I was
>> using
>> a K3 on 40m CW.
>> The OP before me had turned the CW decoder on, so that the text of
>> everything sent or received was shown on the screen. It was shown over the
>> space where the RIT Offset normally would have been displayed.
>>
>> I was unable to turn the damn decoder off. Therefore I was unable to see
>> my
>> RIT offset.
>> The owner of the K3 was not on site and there was no manual.
>> That really ruined my first encounter with a K3.
>> But it was typical of what's wrong with K3 ergonomics.
>> "It's not intuitive."
>>
>> Fast forward. I bought the K3 anyway, was happy with it for a few months,
>> then I got a call from the president of Ten-Tec informing me he had just
>> sent me an Eagle. "What's an Eagle", I asked. He said "your radio."
>> Basically it was what I had told him I wanted about 4 years earlier but
>> instead he built the O7. So this Eagle showed up just in time for CQWW
>> contest.
>>
>> I had already taken down my beam in preparation for moving back to
>> Germany,
>> so I had no shot at a good contest score. A great reason to use the
>> contest
>> to compare the K3 to an Eagle.
>>
>> Not knowing of the audio problem, I connected identical external loud
>> speakers to both rigs and compared.
>> World of difference. The Eagle won hands down. To be sure, I swapped the
>> two speakers. No change.
>>
>> Also, at no time could I say that I heard a signal better on the one or
>> the
>> other.
>>
>> BUT, before the Eagle arrived, I read the manual once.
>> I never touched it again. Everything was intuitive.
>>
>> THAT was the deciding point, not the audio problem.
>>
>> Elecraft needs improvement on the naming and handling of its menus.
>>
>> I'm sure if you have only one radio, a K3, and you use it all the time,
>> then
>> this becomes a moot point.
>> But it is a huge part of the learning curve.
>>
>> 73 - Rick, DJ0IP
>> (Nr. Frankfurt, Germany)
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: TenTec [mailto:tentec-bounces@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Darrell
>> Bellerive VE7IU
>> Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2015 8:42 PM
>> To: k9yc@arrl.net; Discussion of Ten-Tec Equipment
>> Subject: [TenTec] Radio Complexity was Re: Dirty Transmitters - Flex and
>> Yaesu
>>
>> I agree Jim, these issues are very personal and what one operator finds
>> intuitive, another may not. That is why we have many choices when it comes
>> to radios.
>>
>> Personally I like the boat anchor ergonomics; Big widely spaced single
>> function controls.
>>
>> Let's take one example: mode selection.
>>
>> The K3 uses a rocking pushbutton to toggle up or down through its basic
>> modes. One also holds the down side of the mode button (ALT function) to
>> select alternate modes. Once the basic mode of DATA is selected, yet
>> another
>> key is held down (AFX) to set the data mode (DATA MD) with the rotation of
>> the VFO B knob.
>>
>> Want synchronous AM mode? Push the mode button up or down until AM is
>> displayed then press and hold the ALT button. One has to memorize this
>> and/or have a manual or cheat sheet available.
>>
>> This is what I consider complexity. The radio button labels do not
>> indicate
>> how to select synchronous AM mode. I either have to memorize it or look it
>> up. In fact, if I never read the manual, I would not even know the K3(S)
>> has
>> a synchronous AM mode.
>>
>> Boat anchor ergonomics would have a muti-position rotary switch with each
>> mode clearly labelled. Rotate the switch to the desired mode and your
>> done.
>>
>> Now I know that the K3(S) can do more than any boat anchor could ever
>> dream
>> of, and that a rotary switch for modes on a modern radio is not practical,
>> but all that capability comes at a price, complexity.
>>
>> So with a K3(S) to use functions that are not labeled I have to either:
>> memorize,
>> consult the manual,
>> make a cheat sheet, or
>> decide I never want to use that function and just forget it exists.
>>
>> Like all choices in purchasing it becomes a compromise. What is important
>> to
>> me, what can I live with, what can I not live without, etc.
>>
>> The Eagle on my desk is no exception. I knew from day one I would not like
>> its pushbutton system and I don't. I tolerate it because what I do like
>> about that radio outweighs what I do not like. And I know me too - that
>> one
>> day I will have pushed that FNC button one too many times, and the Eagle
>> will go up for sale.
>>
>> And before someone calls me out. Yes, the Eagle has hidden functions too,
>> just like the K3(S). Setting the noise reduction level is one example. You
>> have to hold the NR button after it is selected.
>>
>> Right now there are three radios I would own, the Eagle, the K3S, and the
>> TS-590SG. My choice for the next while anyways is the Eagle. Down the
>> road,
>> quite likely the K3S even with its complexity. Unless of course Ten-Tec,
>> Elecraft, or maybe Heathkit makes something I like even more.
>>
>> 73, Darrell VE7IU
>>
>>
>> On 15-12-10 10:24 AM, Jim Brown wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu,12/10/2015 8:34 AM, Darrell Bellerive VE7IU wrote:
>>>
>>>> but I did not care for the audio, the complexity, or the ergonomics.
>>>>
>>> These issues are very personal, and depend a lot on what we're used to
>>> and what we've experienced.
>>>
>>> I'm retired from a career in pro audio, and am a Fellow of the Audio
>>> Engineering Society. Except for casual monitoring while I'm doing
>>> other stuff in the shack, I use headphones for 99.9% of my operation.
>>> My headphones of choice are Sony MDR7506 and Yamaha CM500. Both
>>> provide excellent communications quality RX audio. I don't use ham RX
>>> to listen to broadcast audio -- I have other radios for that purpose.
>>>
>>> As to user interface -- Elecraft has done a great job of learning what
>>> controls most hams need on a daily basis and which can be on menus.
>>> Everything that I've ever needed to adjust while operating is either a
>>> button or a knob on the front panel, or can be assigned to either of
>>> two "soft" buttons on the front panel. In 8 years, I've found only one
>>> function I wanted to assign -- toggling the speaker on and off with my
>>> Yamaha CM500 plugged into the rear panel.
>>>
>>> Indeed, the "complexity" is nothing more than giving the user more
>>> control of how the radio works than do most other radios. This control
>>> is on menus, AND menus are only needed when you want to change how the
>>> radio works. The K3 and K3S work just fine with no adjustments to any
>>> of those menus to work SSB or CW with a mic and paddle plugged into
>>> the front panel! Exception -- VOX Gain and Anti-VOX are on a top-level
>>> menu. If you want to plug your CM500 (or other boom mic headset) into
>>> the rear panel, you'll need to go to a menu to select rear panel mic
>>> and hit a button (2 on the keypad) to turn on bias. Again, that's a
>>> one-time setting.
>>>
>>> More complexity -- the K3 and K3S have TX modes optimized for digital
>>> modes and for RTTY. You need to select the right method for the way
>>> you want to TX these modes. These are, for most of us, one-time
>>> settings. Less complexity -- both K3 and K3S have a Line Input to feed
>>> digital (or SSB messages) from a computer, so you don't need adapters
>>> to the mic input.
>>>
>>> But all the controls you need while operating are on the front panel
>>> -- IF bandwidth and shift, Mic Gain, CW speed, Audio Compression,
>>> Power out, RF gain, AF Gain, RIT/XIT, preamp on/off, Atten on/off,
>>> Ant1/Ant2 toggle, Tune button, Ant Auto Tune, Mode, Band, Spot, Notch,
>>> NB, NR, are all on the front panel. Want to go into Split Mode? Hit
>>> A>B twice in succession to copy A VFO settings to B VFO, then push and
>>> hold A>B to go into split, then tune the B VFO where you want to TX.
>>>
>>> Hope this helps to correct some misconceptions.
>>>
>>> 73, Jim K9YC
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> TenTec mailing list
>>> TenTec@contesting.com
>>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/tentec
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Darrell Bellerive
>>> VE7IU
>>>
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>> --
>> Darrell Bellerive
>> VE7IU
>>
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