We had no Internet access at the FD site.
Nobody on site had a clue.
Nobody knew where the owner or the manual was.
This was in 2009.
The following year I bought a K3 anyway, because I did like the way it
performed; I just didn't like a radio that wasn't intuitive.
73 - Rick, DJ0IP
(Nr. Frankfurt, Germany)
-----Original Message-----
From: TenTec [mailto:tentec-bounces@contesting.com] On Behalf Of george fritkin
via TenTec
Sent: Friday, December 11, 2015 12:49 AM
To: Discussion of Ten-Tec Equipment
Cc: george fritkin
Subject: Re: [TenTec] Radio Complexity was Re: Dirty Transmitters - Flex and
Yaesu
Rick you are comparing apples with oranges. The Eagle is a basic radio with
limited features {I have 2}. The K3 and K3S {I have 2 K3 and 1 K3S} are far
more complex radios with many many features. If you had internet access you
could have snagged the manual.
Bottom line is Elecraft is going gang busters and Ten Tec well enough said
George, W6GF
On Thursday, December 10, 2015 1:29 PM, "rick@dj0ip.de" <Rick@DJ0IP.de>
wrote:
Darrell,
I'm in between you and Jim.
You identified the problem yourself.
The newer generation have too many features to give them all a knob or button,
and there isn't enough space on the front panel to label a switch with all the
features.
At the same time, THE biggest thing I disliked about the K3 was that I could
not operate it without a manual.
In fact at first I used both the manual and the tiny Quick Guide (those $10
specials). Sometimes the manual explained stuff better, sometimes the guide
was better.
Let's backtrack; prior to purchasing the K3, I was one of the operators with
Tim (K3LR) at a field day site.
During the grave yard shift where most people were home in bed, I was using a
K3 on 40m CW.
The OP before me had turned the CW decoder on, so that the text of everything
sent or received was shown on the screen. It was shown over the space where the
RIT Offset normally would have been displayed.
I was unable to turn the damn decoder off. Therefore I was unable to see my
RIT offset.
The owner of the K3 was not on site and there was no manual.
That really ruined my first encounter with a K3.
But it was typical of what's wrong with K3 ergonomics.
"It's not intuitive."
Fast forward. I bought the K3 anyway, was happy with it for a few months, then
I got a call from the president of Ten-Tec informing me he had just sent me an
Eagle. "What's an Eagle", I asked. He said "your radio."
Basically it was what I had told him I wanted about 4 years earlier but instead
he built the O7. So this Eagle showed up just in time for CQWW contest.
I had already taken down my beam in preparation for moving back to Germany, so
I had no shot at a good contest score. A great reason to use the contest to
compare the K3 to an Eagle.
Not knowing of the audio problem, I connected identical external loud speakers
to both rigs and compared.
World of difference. The Eagle won hands down. To be sure, I swapped the two
speakers. No change.
Also, at no time could I say that I heard a signal better on the one or the
other.
BUT, before the Eagle arrived, I read the manual once.
I never touched it again. Everything was intuitive.
THAT was the deciding point, not the audio problem.
Elecraft needs improvement on the naming and handling of its menus.
I'm sure if you have only one radio, a K3, and you use it all the time, then
this becomes a moot point.
But it is a huge part of the learning curve.
73 - Rick, DJ0IP
(Nr. Frankfurt, Germany)
-----Original Message-----
From: TenTec [mailto:tentec-bounces@contesting.com] On Behalf Of Darrell
Bellerive VE7IU
Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2015 8:42 PM
To: k9yc@arrl.net; Discussion of Ten-Tec Equipment
Subject: [TenTec] Radio Complexity was Re: Dirty Transmitters - Flex and Yaesu
I agree Jim, these issues are very personal and what one operator finds
intuitive, another may not. That is why we have many choices when it comes to
radios.
Personally I like the boat anchor ergonomics; Big widely spaced single function
controls.
Let's take one example: mode selection.
The K3 uses a rocking pushbutton to toggle up or down through its basic modes.
One also holds the down side of the mode button (ALT function) to select
alternate modes. Once the basic mode of DATA is selected, yet another key is
held down (AFX) to set the data mode (DATA MD) with the rotation of the VFO B
knob.
Want synchronous AM mode? Push the mode button up or down until AM is displayed
then press and hold the ALT button. One has to memorize this and/or have a
manual or cheat sheet available.
This is what I consider complexity. The radio button labels do not indicate how
to select synchronous AM mode. I either have to memorize it or look it up. In
fact, if I never read the manual, I would not even know the K3(S) has a
synchronous AM mode.
Boat anchor ergonomics would have a muti-position rotary switch with each mode
clearly labelled. Rotate the switch to the desired mode and your done.
Now I know that the K3(S) can do more than any boat anchor could ever dream of,
and that a rotary switch for modes on a modern radio is not practical, but all
that capability comes at a price, complexity.
So with a K3(S) to use functions that are not labeled I have to either:
memorize,
consult the manual,
make a cheat sheet, or
decide I never want to use that function and just forget it exists.
Like all choices in purchasing it becomes a compromise. What is important to
me, what can I live with, what can I not live without, etc.
The Eagle on my desk is no exception. I knew from day one I would not like its
pushbutton system and I don't. I tolerate it because what I do like about that
radio outweighs what I do not like. And I know me too - that one day I will
have pushed that FNC button one too many times, and the Eagle will go up for
sale.
And before someone calls me out. Yes, the Eagle has hidden functions too, just
like the K3(S). Setting the noise reduction level is one example. You have to
hold the NR button after it is selected.
Right now there are three radios I would own, the Eagle, the K3S, and the
TS-590SG. My choice for the next while anyways is the Eagle. Down the road,
quite likely the K3S even with its complexity. Unless of course Ten-Tec,
Elecraft, or maybe Heathkit makes something I like even more.
73, Darrell VE7IU
On 15-12-10 10:24 AM, Jim Brown wrote:
> On Thu,12/10/2015 8:34 AM, Darrell Bellerive VE7IU wrote:
>> but I did not care for the audio, the complexity, or the ergonomics.
>
> These issues are very personal, and depend a lot on what we're used to
> and what we've experienced.
>
> I'm retired from a career in pro audio, and am a Fellow of the Audio
> Engineering Society. Except for casual monitoring while I'm doing
> other stuff in the shack, I use headphones for 99.9% of my operation.
> My headphones of choice are Sony MDR7506 and Yamaha CM500. Both
> provide excellent communications quality RX audio. I don't use ham RX
> to listen to broadcast audio -- I have other radios for that purpose.
>
> As to user interface -- Elecraft has done a great job of learning what
> controls most hams need on a daily basis and which can be on menus.
> Everything that I've ever needed to adjust while operating is either a
> button or a knob on the front panel, or can be assigned to either of
> two "soft" buttons on the front panel. In 8 years, I've found only one
> function I wanted to assign -- toggling the speaker on and off with my
> Yamaha CM500 plugged into the rear panel.
>
> Indeed, the "complexity" is nothing more than giving the user more
> control of how the radio works than do most other radios. This control
> is on menus, AND menus are only needed when you want to change how the
> radio works. The K3 and K3S work just fine with no adjustments to any
> of those menus to work SSB or CW with a mic and paddle plugged into
> the front panel! Exception -- VOX Gain and Anti-VOX are on a top-level
> menu. If you want to plug your CM500 (or other boom mic headset) into
> the rear panel, you'll need to go to a menu to select rear panel mic
> and hit a button (2 on the keypad) to turn on bias. Again, that's a
> one-time setting.
>
> More complexity -- the K3 and K3S have TX modes optimized for digital
> modes and for RTTY. You need to select the right method for the way
> you want to TX these modes. These are, for most of us, one-time
> settings. Less complexity -- both K3 and K3S have a Line Input to feed
> digital (or SSB messages) from a computer, so you don't need adapters
> to the mic input.
>
> But all the controls you need while operating are on the front panel
> -- IF bandwidth and shift, Mic Gain, CW speed, Audio Compression,
> Power out, RF gain, AF Gain, RIT/XIT, preamp on/off, Atten on/off,
> Ant1/Ant2 toggle, Tune button, Ant Auto Tune, Mode, Band, Spot, Notch,
> NB, NR, are all on the front panel. Want to go into Split Mode? Hit
> A>B twice in succession to copy A VFO settings to B VFO, then push and
> hold A>B to go into split, then tune the B VFO where you want to TX.
>
> Hope this helps to correct some misconceptions.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
> _______________________________________________
> TenTec mailing list
> TenTec@contesting.com
> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/tentec
>
>
> --
> Darrell Bellerive
> VE7IU
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