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Re: [TowerTalk] Flaky dipole

To: Tom Osborne <w7why@frontier.com>, towertalk@contesting.com
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Flaky dipole
From: Grant Saviers <grants2@pacbell.net>
Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2016 19:20:33 -0700
List-post: <towertalk@contesting.com">mailto:towertalk@contesting.com>
First, I have to admit to a strongly held opinion that "ladder line" is one of the worst feedlines one can chose for getting the rf to the antenna. By "ladder line" I mean the windowed polyethylene insulated "twin lead". The "low loss" mystique is misleading.

Yes, it is low loss when suspended in free space in a vacuum. If it is wet or dirty or in contact with most anything the loss goes WAY up. see http://www.k6mhe.com/n7ws/Ladder_Line.pdf and http://www.karinya.net/g3txq/wet_ll/

Then there is the matter of mechanical fragility of the solid conductor CCS version, which unless carefully purchased probably has a copper flash thinner than skin depth over steel. So, steel is partly conducting the rf, the worst choice of conductor possible. Even then, ultimately the CCS will fatigue or rust.

In the old days, hams made their own "open wire feeders", which with larger gauge #12, 10 or even 8, and widely spaced porcelain insulators really was low loss, but one could still see the small swr affect of moisture/rain on the characteristic Z. If one can find the insulators, it is a PITA to make.

OTOH, 73cnc.com (enet review http://www.eham.net/reviews/detail/9318) has some nifty injection molded insulators sized just right for snapping in parallel 14 ga THHN insulated wires at 3.5" apart to make 600ohm Z "open wire feeders". That is great, but one problem with THHN is the 0.004" thick nylon outer sheath will rot away from sunlight UV exposure and that looks ugly and will change the Z a slight amount with just the 0.015" thick PVC left. I've seen one post that uses the weighted average of nylon and pvc as the resultant permittivity of the layered insulation and use that number when I model wire antennas made with THHN (insulation makes a difference).

With the nominal od of 0.105" with PVC and nylon present for 14ga THHN the nearest solid copper is #10 at 0.102" diameter, so that would make a terrific low loss "open wire feeder" with a nominal Z of 510 ohms. 10 ga solid copper snaps in easily to the 73cnc insulators. The larger wire diameter and no insulation should make a 10ga version lower loss than the 14 ga THHN version, but really only suitable for permanent installations.

My 2c, end of rant.

Grant KZ1W

"a few tenths of a db here and there and pretty soon there is 3db loss" (or 8db for ladder line)

On 8/1/2016 17:38 PM, Tom Osborne wrote:
Hi Tin

Wonder what kind of ladder line you are using.

Some of that stuff with the solid core wire corrodes pretty bad.  It is
copperweld and if you scrape off the copper, the steel under will rust.  I
had that problem here and the problem was that where the ladder line
connected to the antenna, it got really rusty and ugly.  Had to take it all
apart and clean it up good.  73 and GL

Tom W7WHY



Hi folks. Sending this to multiple groups to gain expertise.

My primary dipole is acting strange.  Its 135 feet of wire up 40 feet.  Fed
with ladderline. As I am transmitting I noticed the swr going from low to
high suddenly for a few seconds and then back.  Initially I thought it was
my auto tuner showing damage, but I put an MFJ manual tuner in place and I
can clearly see it happening on the meter.  I dont think it is wind moving
the wire, as it was calm when it was happening.  The feed goes from the
rig, through the antenna switch to the tuner, then out the window via a
bulkhead connector and to the 4:1 balun via a 2 foot coax, and then to the
ladderline.

Any ideas on where to look for issues, and or testing methods?

Thanks
TIM
W8TAH

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