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Re: [VHFcontesting] FT8 and the ARRL June VHF Contest - Reformatted Yet

To: "k2drh@frontiernet.net" <k2drh@frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: [VHFcontesting] FT8 and the ARRL June VHF Contest - Reformatted Yet Again!
From: Mark Spencer <mark@alignedsolutions.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2018 10:41:19 -0700
List-post: <mailto:vhfcontesting@contesting.com>
Nice post.

Re the Rover situation.  At this point I am going continue to work with the 
current WSJT-x system, but in my view / opinion it would be nice if:

1) All messages to and from Rovers included both calls.

2) All rover calls were sent with "/R"

I'd suggest any petitions re rover functionality at least propose this as an 
end state if possible.   That being said I do realize the current system could 
probably be enhanced a bit.

Re the TX1 vs TX3 full call issue I felt being able to send:

DE VE7AFZ/R  R CN99 

For example was helpful at times as it included my full call with the "/R" a R 
(for roger) and my grid all in one message.  This seems to convey a lot of 
helpful information in one message.

Like I said in a prior post I am still working thru the optimal way to use the 
software (especially in crowded bands) and appreciate all suggestions.

73

Mark S
VE7AFZ/R

mark@alignedsolutions.com
604 762 4099

> On Jun 13, 2018, at 10:00 AM, "k2drh@frontiernet.net" <k2drh@frontiernet.net> 
> wrote:
> 
> I'm gonna try one more time  -- even in plain text mode it didn't pick up the 
> carriage returns arrgh_____Hopefully this will be less jumbled all together 
> and be more readable
> ------- 
> 
> Very well written and thought out Marshall.  Thanks for that and for opening 
> the discussion of FT8 use during a VHF contest.  With a Flex 6700 I run a 
> separate panadapter and RX slices that monitor both MSK144 and FT8 all the 
> time with multiple instances of WSJT-X decoding them.   Here are some 
> thoughts, experiences and maybe some different perspectives for further 
> discussion.
> 
> ------
> 
> 1.There is no doubt of the value of having this tool for when the band is 
> “closed” to CW/SSB or at least unavailable for most stations (i.e. without 
> large antenna arrays).  It definitely takes advantage of marginal Es 
> conditions and short bubbles like no other can.   ------
> 
> 2.It is however most useful for signals that are steady or slowly fading up 
> and down.  It becomes upset and will not decode when there are sudden changes 
> like meteor pings, doppler, rapid fading from ionoscatter, multipath and a 
> host of other propagation anomalies often found on 6M.  As such it can be 
> very frustrating causing traces to appear and disappear with few if any 
> decodes.  I believe some of these anomalies are responsible for the “one and 
> done” type decodes we often get.
> -----
> 
> 3. The Contest Mode needs to be better documented in the manual.  It may be 
> obvious to us but the checkbox for contest mode does not even appear in the 
> FT8 window unless you have Enable VHF, UHF and Microwave features checked in 
> the settings. This is not discussed in the FT8 section of the manual nor is 
> it mentioned in the section that discusses these features.
> -------
> 
> 4.There is a pop up prompt that asks you if you should be in contest mode 
> when you are in the “normal” report mode and receive a “funny number” grid.  
> If you say yes it will put you in contest mode for that QSO and advance 
> normally, but it will revert back for the next one.   I’m not sure why 
> stations just don’t say yes or just fail open on this.  Maybe they just don’t 
> understand what it means.  I suspect since the program can detect this it 
> could be made to “force” contest mode, but the developers apparently d I'm 
> gonna try one more time  -- even in plain text mode it didn't pick up the 
> carriage returns arrgh_____Hopefully this will be less jumbled all together 
> and be more readable
> ------- 
> 
> Very well written and thought out Marshall.  Thanks for that and for opening 
> the discussion of FT8 use during a VHF contest.  With a Flex 6700 I run a 
> separate panadapter and RX slices that monitor both MSK144 and FT8 all the 
> time with multiple instances of WSJT-X decoding them.   Here are some 
> thoughts, experiences and maybe some different perspectives for further 
> discussion.
> 
> ------
> 
> 1.There is no doubt of the value of having this tool for when the band is 
> “closed” to CW/SSB or at least unavailable for most stations (i.e. without 
> large antenna arrays).  It definitely takes advantage of marginal Es 
> conditions and short bubbles like no other can.   ------
> 
> 2.It is however most useful for signals that are steady or slowly fading up 
> and down.  It becomes upset and will not decode when there are sudden changes 
> like meteor pings, doppler, rapid fading from ionoscatter, multipath and a 
> host of other propagation anomalies often found on 6M.  As such it can be 
> very frustrating causing traces to appear and disappear with few if any 
> decodes.  I believe some of these anomalies are responsible for the “one and 
> done” type decodes we often get.
> -----
> 
> 3. The Contest Mode needs to be better documented in the manual.  It may be 
> obvious to us but the checkbox for contest mode does not even appear in the 
> FT8 window unless you have Enable VHF, UHF and Microwave features checked in 
> the settings. This is not discussed in the FT8 section of the manual nor is 
> it mentioned in the section that discusses these features.
> -------
> 
> 4.There is a pop up prompt that asks you if you should be in contest mode 
> when you are in the “normal” report mode and receive a “funny number” grid.  
> If you say yes it will put you in contest mode for that QSO and advance 
> normally, but it will revert back for the next one.   I’m not sure why 
> stations just don’t say yes or just fail open on this.  Maybe they just don’t 
> understand what it means.  I suspect since the program can detect this it 
> could be made to “force” contest mode, but the developers apparently decided 
> not to do that.
> 
> -----
> 
> 5.VHF Contest mode is NOT used in Europe only NA. The manual says in section 
> 17 that it should not be used when there is international DX involved and its 
> due to the due the reciprocal grid square kludge they had to use to make 
> contest mode work (it was an afterthought).  Using contest mode all the time 
> on 6M and above could really mess up working DX. Worse there are Eurocentric 
> knockoff programs that also decode FT8 like FTDX that don’t even HAVE contest 
> mode since it is of no use to Europeans or HF stations.  Apparently a lot of 
> domestic stations are using these knockoffs.
> -----
> 
> 6.Unlike Marshall’s crew some stations continue to call on FT8 even when the 
> band is open.  This is not productive. Crowding of several strong signals 
> into one RX bandwidth will cause most receivers to overload and WSJT to fail 
> to decode all the signals in the passband.
> -----    
> 7.Not sure why some seem to insist that you reply on their offset but I saw 
> that too. It’s actually better not to since if several stations reply at once 
> they will QRM each other.  The program will actually stop you from TXing if 
> it sees you on the same offset when it decodes another station working him.  
> Section 7 of this operating guide addresses this.    
> https://www.physics.princeton.edu/pulsar/K1JT/FT8_Operating_Tips.pdf 
> 
> ----
> 
> 8.Rovers do have difficulty using /R.  Right now it can be ambiguous who the 
> rover is calling/working.  Receiving some TX messages from a rover now can 
> make the auto sequencing advance on stations that are NOT working the rover.  
> Some ambiguity can be alieved by changing the Settings for type 2 compound 
> call holders from the default of Full Call in TX3 to Full Call in TX1.
> ------  
> 9.Most of the /R  problem could be eliminated by making the /R a Type 1 
> suffix in the software so the /R is only used in TX1 and TX6 which should be 
> sufficient since in contest mode it normally skips over TX2 anyway (unless of 
> course you double click TX1 and make the program shortcut right to TX2 which 
> would  not have the /R appended – nothing is perfect sigh) .   I think we 
> should petition the developers to make this change.  You’d have to be sharp 
> enough to catch the /R in any case (but you should be OPERATING anyway, not 
> in drone mode like so many seem to be).
> 
> ----
> 
> 10.My pet peeve is that once stations go to FT8 they don’t bother to tune 2M 
> or 6M analog for CQs or CQ there anymore.  Unlike Marshall who has much less 
> activity on 2M and above in his part of the country I see lots of locals with 
> 2, 3 or more bands CQ all day on 6M FT8 and its difficult to pry them away 
> from their computer screens to QSY to 2M and work some real radio.  FT8 on 6M 
> seems as addictive as crack.  My 2M and up totals really suffered from this 
> behavior.  The ARRL thumping the drum about the wonders of FT8 in a VHF 
> contest without going into the problems we all saw (see the latest contest 
> newsletter) isn’t helping much either.
> 
> ----  
> 11.There are ways to get stations to QSY to 2M in the 13 character TX5 free 
> message but it’s hard and takes up a lot of time.  I tried a few different 
> ones: 
> ----  a. Just sending QSY 2M? or even WB#xxx QSY 2M (exactly 13 – spaces 
> count) resulted in fail open most of the time or at best a free message back 
> that said “Where?” or “Freq?” and took a lot of time.  Am I wrong or do we 
> have a CALL frequency on 2M where you can CALL another station?  Seemed 
> obvious to me but …
> 
> -----
> 
> 
> b. Sending QSY 144xxx was also inefficient and wasted time while it was 
> processed (who, me?). I also kept hoping that maybe multiple locals would see 
> it and try to make a few more Qs too, but I guess it never occurred to them 
> to try.
> 
> -----
> 
> 
> c. Sending WB#nnn 144210 (also 13) worked the best since the other guy sees 
> his call in RED in the windows, knows it’s for him, knows where and can 
> respond yea or nay  – best response being K2DRH QSY or K2DRH 2M or even K2DRH 
> NO 2M since it directs it at me. Still takes a while though.
> 
> ----
> 
> 
> 12. On ON4KST the 205 Group in the mornings we have been very successful 
> using FT8 on 2M 144.174 for 300-500 mile and even longer contacts.  Sometime 
> there are several stations on at once.  I saw none of this going on during 
> the contest.  This has some real potential.------  
> Well I guess that’s my 12 step program for FT8 operating.  Your mileage may 
> vary.  
> ------
> 73 de Bob K2DRH
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