Off the reflector:
Thanks Mark for posting this "rebuttal?" to W0BTU.
His rules are way too stifling for my tastes.
On another reflector, some bozo was going off
on me saying I didn't know what I was talking
about, etc. when I was trying to give him
some friendly advice.
The moderator asked me if I wanted
to have him kick this guy off the reflector
because he offended me. I told him, heck no,
he just makes himself look stupid. I'll let
the readers decide which one of us is the fool.
You know the saying, don't argue with a fool...
Anyway, your comments are very well received here.
I'm going to save your "rules" for future reference.
I'm a self confessed "never-FT8'er", but I wouldn't
dream of forcing the FT8 enthusiasts off the reflector.
I don't get where the beef is here.
73
Rick N6RK
I had to go rummage around my Trash folder to find the original post that
started this:
“From the FT8 arguments in addition to the "millennials causing
the WWV shutdown" argument, it appears that the parts of the hobby that I
enjoy do not cross paths with those on the topband reflector. Although I
wish you all many CW DX, it appears that I am no longer welcome and that I
must take my leave.”
I've no idea what the millennial and WWV comment is about as I did not
follow that thread.
So we're back to the old FT8 vs CW argument. Was this person
specifically harassed and hunted down for his views? Shame on the
moderators if that's what happened. Or, did “the leaver” just not feel
welcomed because others expressed contrary views and wouldn't back off?
If that's the case, then there's the door, don't let it hit ya where the
Good Lord split ya.
I've been on this reflector for a number of years and from how I observe
the moderators actions, I doubt any harassment and hunting down of heretics
occurred; I like to see the moderators shoot a warning shot across the
bow to get the ship of discourse turned away from the rocks, and overall I
think they do a good job of it.
In today's society people believe they have a right not to be offended.
Really? I don't think so. Nobody, including myself, has the right to
have their opinions respected. You do have the right to express your
opinions freely, and without fear of persecution. In reality, that's not
really true for a reflector as it's a private venue, but most reflectors
operate as a benign dictatorship and hold to these principles.
Mark's Principles of Discourse:
#1: You don't have the right to not be offended. You don't have the
right to have your views favorably accepted. You don't have the right to
expect people with contrary view to back down because you're offended.
Accept the fact that people will not agree with you.
#2: Only you can decide to take offense. Sometimes the offenses are
real, a lot of times imaginary. When I've felt offended by people on a
reflector, or in email, or other electronic mediums, I privately email the
potential offender for clarification. The vast majority of times there
was no offense intended. Remember, with electronic mediums you loose
about 93% of the intended message (body language, tone of voice etc – look
this one up if you don't believe me. Google is your friend.....).
#3: If you don't respect the source of the insult, don't let it bother
you.
#4: If you're new to the sandbox, welcome. Unfortunately, if you want to
be respected for your views, then you have to first earn your stripes.
“Respect is something earned, not something given”. I have no idea who
said that, but it's true. The corollary is that even if you don't
respect a persons position, courtesy still remains.
So Mike W0BTU, this is the 2nd thread in which you've posted your
stackexchange etiquette manifesto:
“but I gar-run-tee you that none of this bickering and (fill in your own
definition of inappropriate behavior here) is tolerated there. ”
Respectfully Mike, it seems you've had it with this “bickering” and
“inappropriate behavior” and recommend putting the proverbial hammer down
to set thing straight (you “gar-run-tee” it). That's concerns me.
Is it really bickering that's occurring, or might it be just a healthy
discourse on issues you might not feel need discussed any longer even
though they may be of import to list members?
“fill in your own definition of inappropriate behavior here”. Wow. I
suspect you may not agree with mine. So, lets use mine and you follow
them, OK ?
“*Unacceptable Behavior - Even if you don’t intend it, this can have a
negative impact on others ” So, if I offend someone I get a “warning” from
the moderators as Enforcement step #1? I guess it's don't offend anyone
for any reason or the hammer comes down!
Sorry Mike, I think the moderators are doing a fine job as it is. Do I
agree with their actions all the time? No. But I'll cut them some
slack; it's a thankless job and you're always going to upset someone.
So, in the end, we really don't know why “the leaver” is leaving. Was he
hunted down and the slothful moderators did nothing? Did he attempt to
contact the “offenders” to straighten things out? Or, perhaps, maybe he
just wasn't able to change people's views to his own and decided to pick up
his marbles and leave. Do we really know the facts, or are we just
reacting in general to a newbie leaving the sandbox -- because a newbie
leaving is bad?
73 Mark K3MSB
On Tue, Sep 4, 2018 at 11:54 PM, Mike Waters <mikewate@gmail.com> wrote:
Okay, bear with me...
Perhaps we here ought to have a Code Of Conduct. Something along the lines
as this one:
https://stackoverflow.com/help/behavior
https://stackoverflow.com/conduct
I am one of the three moderators on ham.stackexchange.com. Now, that site
is not a forum or a reflector, but I gar-run-tee you that none of this
bickering and (fill in your own definition of inappropriate behavior here)
is tolerated there.
Here's the gist of that Code of Conduct:
*Unacceptable Behavior*
*No subtle put-downs or unfriendly language.* Even if you don’t intend it,
this can have a negative impact on others.
*No name-calling or personal attacks*. Focus on the content, not the
person. This includes terms that feel personal even when they're applied to
content (e.g. “lazy”).
*No bigotry*. We don’t tolerate any language likely to offend or alienate
people based on race, gender, sexual orientation, or religion — and those
are just a few examples. When in doubt, just don’t.
*No harassment*. This includes, but isn’t limited to: bullying,
intimidation, vulgar language, direct or indirect threats, sexually
suggestive remarks, patterns of inappropriate social contact, and sustained
disruptions of discussion.
*Enforcement*
We take your reports seriously. Those who don’t follow the Code of Conduct
in good faith may face repercussions deemed appropriate by our moderation
team. This is how moderators generally handle misconduct:
*1. Warning*
For most first-time misconduct, moderators will remove offending content
and send a warning. Most issues are resolved here.
*2. Account Suspension*
For repetitive misconduct or behavior containing harassment, bigotry, or
abuse, moderators will impose a temporary suspension (one day or more,
depending on the violation).
*3. Account Expulsion*
For very rare cases, moderators will expel people who display a pattern of
harmful destructive behavior toward our community.
All actions will be taken on a case-by-case basis at the discretion of our
moderators. ...
We created this Code of Conduct because it reinforces the respect that we,
as a community, expect from one another. Having a code also provides us
with clear avenues to correct our culture should it stray off-course.
*Why shouldn't we have something like that here, my friends?*
-------------------------
Actually, Dennis, I miss Tom. I learned an awful lot from him. He founded
Ameritron, helped to design the MFJ-259B antenna analyzer and a lot of
other items in the MFJ catalog.
I agree with what you say, but he calmed down a lot before he left
One of the hams that used to constantly pick and argue with Tom actually
made a point of hunting him down for the sole purpose of getting him upset.
(!) He took some kind of sadistic pleasure in doing it! I know for an
absolute fact that is true, because when I emailed this person politely
asking him about it, he plainly told me this. (Any questions about this
person's identity will be immediately trashed).
With an ENFORCED "be nice" policy here *with consequences for the kind of
behavior we see here*, Tom would probably still be here.
I am *not* campaigning to be moderator here. Make your own judgements, and
decide for yourselves whether these suggestions would make this Topband
Reflector a better place or not.
73 SK CL,
Mike
www.w0btu.com
ham.stackexchange.com moderator
On Tue, Sep 4, 2018, 2:31 PM Dennis OConnor via Topband <
topband@contesting.com> wrote:
Well, I have been gone a few years (spent time partially paralyzed and
few
other minor impediments) but when I come back nothing has changed.
Yeah, Tom headed off into the distance. He sure did like to argue. What
made those arguing with him go ballistic is he is often/mostly right on
technical subjects. He just did not have the ability to shrug, decide the
other guy was an idiot and let it go.
What I do notice about leavers is they seem to feel sorry for themselves,
feel they are abused, yadda yadda. Unless you have the stature of a Tom
you
won't even be mentioned by two weeks from now so feeling Noble is a waste
of emotion.
I participate in a few forums, ham antennas, contesting, boating,
aircraft, photography, farming, astronomy, etc. I have lots of hobbies -
remember, he who dies with the most wins.. I can tell you from long long
experience that to be in any hobby forum you need to grow a thick skin.
If
someone really irritates you, don't read him.
If you have had your say and he keeps coming back at you and digging,
just
drop it. Refuse to post any further on the topic. If you can't control
yourself then block the thread. Let him declare victory, hold a parade,
and
sail for home. That is how the self declared winners of any war end it.In
my case I don't know what the hoo-haa over millennials (whatever the hell
they are) is about, don't care, don't want to know, and not gonna look up
the thread. See, I don't have any stress
(I cause it)
To the OP on this issue, I urge you to stick around because I like to see
any and all opinions - but if not, don't let the door knob do ya.And NO,
I
will not be looking back at this thread to see a reply. I have had my say
and that's it.
Ciao,Look for me on topband in 4 to 6 weeks when I get the soybeans
combined and the broken antenna junk patched up (wow is it wrecked after
8
years) I'm CW though.
k8do
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