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Re: [TowerTalk] Vertical question

To: towertalk@contesting.com
Subject: Re: [TowerTalk] Vertical question
From: Artek Manuals <Manuals@ArtekManuals.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2021 18:39:43 -0400
List-post: <mailto:towertalk@contesting.com>
And all the arm waving aside the important graph in N6LF's paper is the one on page 12 which to to the original posters conundrum about what to do with his small yard one can conclude the following:

1) That for 80M,� for radials 8 feet high,� from� .1 wavelength to .3 wavelength in length there is less than .5db difference in the "overall gain"� from 2 radials up to 16 radials when dealing with "Average Soil" (.005/13) .

What this DOES NOT speak to is
1) What happens with different soil types , my soil here in Florida ( as measured using N6LF's "OWL probe" approach) is typically .001/7 to .002/12 depending on a recent rains and changes back and forth quite quickly. 2) What happens on 160M? If you read N6LF considerable body of work over the years he will be the first to tell you that conductivity and Er of soil can vary considerably with frequency depending on a number of factors. For my extremely poor sandy soil here in Florida there is not ( as measured) much difference between 160 and 80, for the original poster's soils this may not be the case ( one size DOES NOT fit all) 3) The graph is for AVERAGE GAIN if chasing DX is your thing you might want to look more specifically at simulations that arrival angles on 10-15 degrees on 80M and 20 degrees on 160M. This of course ignores some of the semi unexplained phenomena of very high angle arrival� of signals at gray line.� I worked a G station the other day on 80 ..... 2 hours after his sunrise... he was using a low Inverted-V (~40feet)� .. He was the ONLY EU I heard on the band. 4) As I think it was K9AY (?... my apology if I miss remembered your call) pointed out a few weeks ago that for verticals and especially inverted L's that one needs to be considering the the VERTICAL portion of the gain NOT the AVERAGE! 5) Most of N6LF's graphs as I understand it were the product of NEC simulations which depending on many factors may not represent ones actual environment ( trees, houses with wiring in them, nearby power lines, etc etc etc).

The bottom line in the real world ..... put it up and try it ...if that doesn't work put something else up and try that ...that IMO is where the real fun still lies in amateur radio

And the list goes on

Dave
NR1DX




On 3/15/2021 5:55 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:

> N4ZR wrote:

This is the second allusion to 1/8 wave elevated radials that I've
read, but I've been unable to find anything further, in the usual
sources. Any leads?
Google found N6LF's work on elevated ground systems:

<https://rudys.typepad.com/files/elevated-ground-systems-article-final-version.pdf>

Rudy's bibliography includes:
Dick Weber, K5IU, �Optimum Elevated Radial Vertical Antennas,� Communication Quarterly, Spring 1997, pp 9 - 27


73,

�� ... Joe, W4TV


On 2021-03-15 5:42 PM, john@kk9a.com wrote:
I had the same small lot ground radial issue at my Aruba home but it still
somewhat worked. Another option might be the K2AV single wire folded
counterpoise.

N4ZR wrote:

This is the second allusion to 1/8 wave elevated radials that I've read,
but I've been unable to find anything further, in the usual sources.
Any leads?� I have an inverted L, but really don't have room for 1/4
wave elevated radials and am told that my 8 x 70 foot radials on the
ground really aren't worth much.

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