I think Ed, K3SK and K1DS are on the right track. Same timeframe, digital and
analog with perhaps extra points for analog. Or not.
I believe we all agree that the goal is to increase activity in what has been a
declining activity. By allowing contacts on digital and analog, it encourages
the digital guys to work analog stations. My concerns about other approaches :-
making it a 48 hour contest is going to negatively impact rovers. How many can
stay out that long? I don't find many out in the middle of the night. So we are
basically limiting the time they are on for all practical purposes. And many
rovers I work are only analog. So basically they are down to one day of
operating, so fewer grids they can hit. On a different note, I see on 3830 in
most contests I operate more hours than most single ops. Yeah, as my xyl says
I'm a bit obsessed, hi. But even I would not feel enthused about a 48 hour vhf
contest. We just don't have enough ops these days.
- We had a great experiment with separate mode events this summer in CQWW. In
fairness, 6 meters was not good either weekend from what I can tell (I had very
limited operating in the Analog weekend). I operated the digital and it was
really slow. And there was no option to go analog to reduce the lack of digital
stations. And vice versa for the analog weekend. So I don't think having
separate operating modes accomplishes anything since it further thins an
already thin herd.
- I worked about 140 Q's this weekend on 902 and up. All were analog. I don't
currently have digital on those bands but I am working on that. Even so, it
would take a lot of time to work what I did on digital and the only advantage
would be I might add some further out Q's. So, by having separate operating
times by mode, I think you would end up with very limited results on 902 and
up. Basically the digital only session becomes primarily a lower 4 bands
contest. Many of my microwave contacts were with rovers who don't currently
operate on digital.
So back to the top. I think the goals are met by allowing an analog Q and a
digital on the same band. If need be, weight the analog to push activity there.
It's a disappointing reality that we might need this. I'm old enough to
remember when I worked more stuff than I do now on Analog only. But that ship
has sailed and we should stay focused on how to best run all modes in the
future to increase activity. We all need that to keep it interesting and fun.
And given current activity levels, I don't think we will be overwhelmed using
both. We definitely would need help from the contest programs so it doesn't
become messy. Right now to run the sprints that allow both modes, I go back to
the future and use a check sheet to remember who I worked on which mode, hi.
Lastly, boycotting to make a point is , I believe self defeating. Imagine being
on for your first contest and finding dismal activity because lot's of guys
don't operate to make a point. It's really hard to find new blood in vhf
contesting. Turning any new ops off isn't a good way to succeed. If we're frank
about it, one of the issues since FT8 is that quite a few long term ops stopped
operating since they didn't like it. Essentially they have been boycotting. I
believe that is a contributor to lower analog activity. Why not just get on
and have fun any way you enjoy? It's a VHF truism - activity breeds activity. A
number of times this weekend I was on 6 or 2M ssb and didn't see any other
stations on that mode.
My .02 cents.
Jeff K1TEO
On Wednesday, September 17, 2025 at 03:17:08 PM GMT+1, Ed Kucharski via
VHFcontesting <vhfcontesting@contesting.com> wrote:
Not if there are rules in place to prevent this ("mode hopping"). Something
like: QSO's may only be made on recognized digital/analog frequencies/portions
of the bands and a digital and analog QSO can not be made back-to-back on the
same frequency (or similar wording of no back-to-back analog/digital QSO's
maybe similar to the HF NA sprints...).
I've been a proponent of a change in the contest rules similar to the format of
the ARRL 10m contest and have submitted a couple of proposals to ARRL and heard
crickets in return. Analog Only, Digital Only and Mixed categories allowing 2
QSO's (one analog and one digital) on each band. After reading others ideas, I
also think additional encouragement may be needed to further promote analog
operation - perhaps making analog QSO's worth additional points? But is that
enough to get the digital operators off digital and explore analog?
There were a couple of times last weekend where I went an hour without making a
QSO (4 bands, KW+ power on 6 and 2m, 100w on 222/432). I called CQ on 6 and 2m
SSB on the top of many hours and self-spotted making only a couple QSO's that
way, worked only a few multi-ops and just one (and only one) rover on 1 band
from 1 grid. Chat rooms got me a only a couple more skeds and QSO's. It was
beyond boring (thank goodness I could watch football on my iPad while
operating). Trying to get stations to QSY on FT8 to other bands was also a
challenge and I had a higher failure rate than success rate.
73,
Ed K3DNE
EM94
> On 09/17/2025 9:27 AM EDT David R Buckwalter via VHFcontesting
> <vhfcontesting@contesting.com mailto:vhfcontesting@contesting.com> wrote:
>
>
> If you allow working a station both Digital and Analog on each band, all you
> will do is create “Mode Hopping’ …… “QSL the FN99, switch to FT8 and call me
> right here again, then we can move up a band and do it again”.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Ed Parish <k1ep.list@gmail.com mailto:k1ep.list@gmail.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2025 7:30 AM
> To: Terry Price <terry@directivesystems.com mailto:terry@directivesystems.com>
> Cc: K3SK@buckwalter.co mailto:K3SK@buckwalter.co; NEWS
> <NEWSVHF@mailman.qth.net mailto:NEWSVHF@mailman.qth.net>; VHF Contesting
> <VHFcontesting@contesting.com mailto:VHFcontesting@contesting.com>
> Subject: Re: [NEWSVHF] [VHFcontesting] Here's a Proposed Solution for
> Digital/Analog Operating
>
>
>
> Well, if you go for a 48 hour contest, 24 analog and 24 digital, how about
> splitting it 12/24/12 to encourage people to work both modes and stick
> around? Instead of having people on for the first 24 and QRT or just get on
> for the second 24?
>
>
>
> Ed Parish, K1EP
>
> k1ep@arrl.net mailto:k1ep@arrl.net <mailto:k1ep@arrl.net mailto:k1ep@arrl.net>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 16, 2025, 20:38 Terry Price <terry@directivesystems.com
> mailto:terry@directivesystems.com <mailto:terry@directivesystems.com
> mailto:terry@directivesystems.com> > wrote:
>
> Well, I said make the contest a full 48 hrs, 24 digital and 24 analog.
> Comments about too many modes is kinda correct, you don't know where to go.
> You call CQ on SSB/CW and you miss FT8 folks, go to FT8 you miss analog
> folks. That's why I think having two segments really fits well. Both modes
> get evening, morning and day. If someone is opposed to digital, they
> operate whichever segment is analog. This also would reduce the "Sunday
> afternoon blues" when you'll do anything to work someone.
>
> So right now, there is SOLP and SOHP and analog only, for the folks that
> only want to work digital, there is no digital award only that I am aware
> of. Yes, it may be creating another category but it's not just so "everyone
> wins" Digital isn't going anywhere and to think the league will remove
> digital from VHF contests is not realistic. Anyone who has contested for a
> while knows that FT8 is NOT a contest mode, yes you can dig out folks that
> are too weak for cw or folks that don't operate cw, but neither is Q65,
> MSK144 for that matter but folks don't abuse those.
>
> I for one see nothing wrong with an analog only, digital only and for us
> guttens' both modes - and awards, I personally would love a 48 hour VHF
> contest as long as there is activity to keep me awake. I couldn't make the
> CQ VHF analog but I did operate the digital and if the results are correct
> I was #1 in the US. I operated two K3's, one on 6 and one driving a
> transverter for two. The challenge was keeping both going and trying not to
> miss anything. It wasn't the same fun as analog and recognising someone by
> their voice or fist but it wasn't that bad.
>
> I've been contesting since 1978 when I worked with WA8LXJ in Kentucky. I've
> singleop'ed, multiop'ed, and roved. I loved roving but getting folks to QSY
> is difficult on FT8 and you miss a lot when folks are hanging out on FT8
> all the time so dividing the contest into two sections would also help
> rovers and hopefully spur more to get on. Is the idea perfect, of course
> not, what in life is perfect?
>
> Terry
> Terry Price - W8ZN
> Directive Systems and Engineering
> 703-754-3876
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 16, 2025 at 4:43 PM David R Buckwalter via VHFcontesting <
> vhfcontesting@contesting.com mailto:vhfcontesting@contesting.com
> <mailto:vhfcontesting@contesting.com mailto:vhfcontesting@contesting.com> >
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
>
> > Here is my 3-1/2¢ on using analog and digital modes for the ARRL VHF
> > contests.
> >
> >
> >
> > There is an easy solution. Just read on ===
> >
> > First, it is not just about FT8. Some operators use other digital modes as
> > well. This past weekend’s contest I logged CW, SSB, FT8, MSK, Q65 and
> > JT65 contacts.
> >
> > Separating the contest for either analog or digital format is dumb. There
> > are already too many things going on in life to worry about dedicating
> > another weekend for contesting. Splitting the same weekend into slots
> > for
> > analog and digital is a bad idea. Which format gets the morning tropo time
> > slot? What format gets the daytime Sporadic E? Does MSK144 for meteor
> > scatter get assigned to the mornings, evenings, night, or afternoon? What
> > about those like myself that add multipliers using digital modes to work
> > EME? Do we get to use digital when the moon is available at our location?
> >
> > Over the past 3 to 4 years there has been much discussion on this subject
> > and the one significant point made is Analog operators (SSB & CW) will not
> > work digital stations. In most cases the analog stations don’t even own
> > digital equipment or software. However, whether they choose to or not,
> > Digital operators have the ability and many do work ‘Mixed Mode’, both
> > digital and analog.
> >
> > Considering this, the most logical thing to do is change the rules for
> > scoring and operating categories. Keep the current operating categories
> > including ‘Analog Only’. Then, add a new ‘Digital Only’ category. Create
> > a
> > points incentive for analog contacts. As an example, use the current point
> > values for digital modes, then add 1 point to those values for each analog
> > contact. A 144MHz now 1 point, will be 2 points if an analog contact is
> > made, a 222MHz contact is now 2 points and will be 3 if it is for an analog
> > contact. This provides an incentive for ‘Mixed Mode’ stations to seek out
> > and work analog contacts. Still permit only one valid contact per band
> > with
> > any station. If a station is previously worked digital and then is later
> > worked analog, allow the higher point analog contact, letting the previous
> > logged digital contact to become the ‘DUPE’. ‘Digital Only’ are
> > competing
> > with other ‘Digital Only’ even if they work a ‘Mixed Mode’ station. It’s
> > the same for ‘Analog Only’ stations. There is no downside to this method
> > of scoring.
> >
> >
> >
> > Yes, I know the logging software will need to be revised. But that’s got
> > nothing to do with making everybody happy and increasing activity.
> >
> >
> >
> > FWIW – I have been VHF contesting since 1980
> >
> > Dave - K3SK - FM07
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> > <mailto:VHFcontesting@contesting.com mailto:VHFcontesting@contesting.com>
> > http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/vhfcontesting
> >
> >
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