[Amps] grounding grids

[Gary Schafer]

How much does it vary from band to band?

The idea is the higher in frequency you go the lower the impedance is due to
the capacitor. At lower frequencies the capacitor has higher impedance but
the impedance of the choke decreases, striking a balance.
This type of circuit is commonly used for deriving a constant RF voltage
over a wide frequency range.

73
Gary K4FMX

> -----Original Message-----
> From: amps-bounces at contesting.com [mailto:amps-bounces at contesting.com] On
> Behalf Of Joe Subich, W4TV
> Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 8:36 PM
> To: audioguy at charter.net; 'Alex Eban'; 'Ham-amps'
> Subject: Re: [Amps] grounding grids
> 
> 
> 
> >From Page 83 of the manual ...
> 
>   Pin 2, 3 and 4 of each tube are connected together internally.
>   Each of the three grid pins is bypassed to ground.  This
>   combination of RF chokes and capacitors provides a predetermined
>   level of negative feedback at the tube grids to further reduce
>   intermodulation distortion.
> 
> Unfortunately, as shown by others this is not accurate and since
> the negative feedback varies significantly from band to band the
> floating/bypassed grids simply can't work as Heath claimed.
> 
> 73,
> 
>    ... Joe, W4TV
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: audioguy at charter.net [mailto:audioguy at charter.net]
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 6:11 PM
> > To: lists at subich.com; 'Alex Eban'; 'Ham-amps'
> > Subject: Re: [Amps] grounding grids
> >
> >
> > So why did Heath do it then? (Chokes et al)
> > Inquiring minds want to know
> > 73, --jim
> >
> >
> > Sent from my BlackBerryR wireless device from U.S. Cellular
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: "Joe Subich, W4TV" <lists at subich.com>
> >
> > Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 17:49:20
> > To: 'Alex Eban'<alexeban at gmail.com>; 'Ham-amps'<amps at contesting.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Amps] grounding grids
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > From an RF point of view, the grid is grounded and well,
> >
> > The Grid is far from "well grounded."  With 220 pF in series,
> > the grids are above ground by 25 Ohms (Xc) at 28 MHz and 206
> > Ohms (Xc) at 3.5 MHz (the design operating range of the SB-220)
> > ignoring the Xl of the long and thin leads on the capacitors
> > and the effects (including distributed capacitance and internal
> > resonances)) of the RF chokes.
> >
> > 25 to 200 Ohms is far from "well grounded" and an opportunity
> > for oscillation at some frequency.  For a more rigorous analysis
> > see: http://www.w8ji.com/vhf_stability.htm
> >
> > Again, placing ANY impedance in the grid portion of a "common
> > grid" circuit is an invitation to instability and the impedance
> > of all grid connections should be minimized.  Eimac's air system
> > sockets even include slots to allow the shortest possible strap
> > connections from the grids to chassis.
> >
> > 73,
> >
> >    ... Joe, W4TV
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Alex Eban [mailto:alexeban at gmail.com]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 1:29 PM
> > > To: 'Bill W5WVO'; lists at subich.com; stevengrant98 at yahoo.com;
> > > 'Ham-amps'
> > > Subject: RE: [Amps] grounding grids
> > >
> > >
> > > ...the key to the stability is the capacitors! From an RF
> > > point of view, the grid is grounded and well, since
> > > capacitors work well at 6 meters.
> > > Alex	4Z5KS
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: amps-bounces at contesting.com
> > > [mailto:amps-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of Bill W5WVO
> > > Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 7:58 PM
> > > To: lists at subich.com; stevengrant98 at yahoo.com; 'Ham-amps'
> > > Subject: Re: [Amps] grounding grids
> > >
> > > Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
> > >
> > > > While the 3-500Z and other older glass tubes don't have
> > > > as much gain as the newer external anode tubes, the
> > principle is the
> > > > same.  If there is enough gain and the
> > > feedback is of
> > > > the correct phase the tube will oscillate. Placing any
> > impedance in
> > > > the "grounded" grid of a common grid circuit increases -
> > > not decreases
> > > > - the chances of oscillation.
> > >
> > > How would you characterize, then, the design of the SB-220,
> > > where the 3-500Z
> > >
> > > grids are grounded through RFCs and bypassed by dsk ceramic
> > > caps? Particularly
> > > since this particular amplifier has been converted to 6m use,
> > > but the grid
> > > components are still originals from the HF version.
> > >
> > > Would this amplifier be more stable with the grid pins
> > > directly grounded to
> > > chassis?
> > >
> > > Bill W5WVO
> > >
> > > >
> > > > 73,
> > > >
> > > >    ... Joe, W4TV
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> -----Original Message-----
> > > >> From: amps-bounces at contesting.com
> > > >> [mailto:amps-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of Steven
> > > Grant, W4IIV
> > > >> Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 10:45 AM
> > > >> To: Herzog; Ham-amps; Bill Fuqua
> > > >> Subject: Re: [Amps] grounding grids
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> This was used on newer tubes (3-500Z - ect) to raise the
> > > resonance of
> > > >> the grid to control parasitics. It is not needed for older tubes
> > > >>
> > > >> STEVEN GRANT W4IIV
> > > >>
> > > >> --- On Wed, 7/29/09, Bill Fuqua <wlfuqu00 at uky.edu> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> From: Bill Fuqua <wlfuqu00 at uky.edu>
> > > >> Subject: Re: [Amps] grounding grids
> > > >> To: "Herzog" <herzog at frontiernet.net>, "Ham-amps"
> > > >> <amps at contesting.com>
> > > >> Date: Wednesday, July 29, 2009, 9:28 AM
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Maybe to measure individual grid currents?
> > > >> That would be the only reason I can think of.
> > > >> 73
> > > >> Bill wa4lav
> > > >>
> > > >> At 08:35 PM 7/27/2009 -0400, Herzog wrote:
> > > >>> RE: > >Hi.
> > > >>>>> This has probable been asked before on this group,but... Is it
> > > >>>>> good practice to physically tie the grids to ground via one
> > > >>>>> connection,or via low value resistors and decoupling
> > > capacitors. I
> > > >>>>> was
> > > >> going to go for VHF
> > > >>>>> practice and go for direct grounding,but would like
> > > >> some comments before
> > > >>>>> progressing this project.
> > > >>>>> 73`s Jon
> > > >>>
> > > >>> REPLY:
> > > >>>
> > > >>> I'm curious - what would be the reason for using resistors and
> > > >>> decoupling caps?
> > > >>>
> > > >>> 73, Bill W6WRT
> > > >>> ===========================
> > > >>> Herzog proffers a reason, to be able to measure the
> > grid current.
> > > >>> _______________________________________________
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