[CQ-Contest] ARRL and Open Logs - Time for the next step?

Thu Jul 31 08:30:26 EDT 2008

On Wed, Jul 30, 2008 at 11:50:44PM -0400, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
> 
> Gerry, 
> 
> > This debate will effect ARRL, not CQ.  I'm going to lobby 
> > ARRL CAC to make logs public, but simply obfuscate the exact 
> > callsigns from the Cabrillo file (a very simple task).   In 
> > this way, they can, in no way, be used for QSL manipulation, 
> > but, lots of other interesting data can be mined.
> 
> The Cabrillo header will also need to be removed.  
> 
> By the way, this would be a perfect solution for CQ as well ... 
> convert all calls to random 9 digit sequence.  Each log 
> could be assigned the 9 digit ID and any time that call 
> appeared in any log it would be replaced.  By obfuscating the 
> calls, any log made public would no longer be individually 
> identifiable  which would solve most of the privacy concerns. 

Doing so, however, would defeat one of the main reasons for open
logs in the first place, ensuring a fair log adjudication process.
Not ten days ago, on this very reflector, some specific examples
were brought up that led K3EST to thank people for helping the CQWW 
CC improve the accuracy of the log adjudication process.  As that
particular problem involved subtle errors in call signs, changing
call signs to arbitrary IDs would have prevented that problem 
from ever being detected.

> 73, 
> 
>    ... Joe, W4TV 
>   
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: cq-contest-bounces at contesting.com 
> > [mailto:cq-contest-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of Gerry Hull
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 7:28 PM
> > To: David Kopacz
> > Cc: cq-contest at contesting.com
> > Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] ARRL and Open Logs - Time for the next step?
> > 
> > 
> > Hi David and company,
> > 
> > I understand your viewpoint.  However, the cats out of the 
> > bag, for the biggest of DX Contests, CQWW.
> > 
> > I already have a software strategy tool which plots the QSO 
> > rate and Mult rate, per band and multi-band, for stations on 
> > the CQWW log site
> > (and any other cabrillo file I import).   Mix that with the live feed
> > from your existing contest software, and you add another 
> > dimension to the world of contesting - making live strategy 
> > decisions based on past performance.
> > 
> > This debate will effect ARRL, not CQ.  I'm going to lobby 
> > ARRL CAC to make logs public, but simply obfuscate the exact 
> > callsigns from the
> > Cabrillo file (a very simple task).   In this way, they can, in no
> > way, be used for QSL manipulation, but, lots of other 
> > interesting data can be mined.
> > 
> > David, thanks again for the support of the www.getscores.org 
> > live scoring site, and for you and Krassi's generosity with 
> > the 6Y1V superstation.
> > 
> > 73, Gerry W1VE
> > www.getscores.org
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On Wed, Jul 30, 2008 at 1:27 PM, David Kopacz 
> > <david.kopacz at aspwebhosting.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Dick,
> > >
> > > Let me provide a single example. Let's take 6Y1V and PJ2T, whom are 
> > > relatively close geographically and compete in a number of 
> > contests, 
> > > such as CQWW and ARRL International DX contests.
> > >
> > > Geoff (W0CG) has a great station (PJ2T), has been around a 
> > long time 
> > > and over the years, for each contest, has developed numerous 
> > > strategies to produce winning scores. On the other hand, 
> > 6Y1V is new 
> > > station, with very competitive hardware but I have not yet 
> > gained the 
> > > same experience level competing from the Caribbean. Believe 
> > me, it is 
> > > a learning process.
> > >
> > > Now, Geoff may feel differently, but if I were him, I don't think I 
> > > would want my logs opened to my biggest competitor so they can gain 
> > > all of the information and experience it has taken me years 
> > to garner 
> > > in a few weeks of studying my logs. I think this is even 
> > more serious 
> > > of a problem for single operator stations.
> > >
> > > Personally, I can't imagine that cheating is so ramped that it is 
> > > necessary to open logs in order to discover it.
> > >
> > > Someone mentioned that our contacts are open anyway because 
> > they are 
> > > on open air waves, to which I reply, if someone wants to chase me 
> > > around the band and record all of my contacts in a contest, 
> > so be it, 
> > > but for the contest sponsor to force me to open my logs 
> > arbitrarily so 
> > > you can personally check to see if I am cheating is wrong. 
> > My logs are 
> > > my property, not the contest sponsor and when I submit them to them 
> > > for adjudication, I do not grant them permission to show 
> > them to you 
> > > or anyone else.
> > >
> > > Fortunately, we do not live in a society where everyone must be 
> > > punished because of the few that break the rules. Why 
> > should Amateur 
> > > Radio be any different?
> > >
> > > David ~ KY1V
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > <Hans,
> > >
> > > <I'm just curious and really don't want to get into this 
> > thread other 
> > > than to <ask a question.  I am not judging anybody's 
> > decision, but my 
> > > question
> > > is:
> > > <What is the big deal about keeping your contest logs 
> > secret and only 
> > > for <your eyes?  If you submit your logs to LotW they are 
> > public for 
> > > those who
> > > <are interested.  Like I said, I'm just curious.  If you 
> > were a cheater,
> > > I
> > > <could understand it.  But anybody listening to the contest 
> > can hear the
> > >
> > > <contact, so why all the furor over submitting a log?
> > >
> > > <Dick
> > > <W0RAA
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > CQ-Contest mailing list
> > > CQ-Contest at contesting.com 
> > > http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/cq-contest
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -- 
> > 73,
> > 
> > Gerry Hull, W1VE/VE1RM
> > w1ve at yccc.org
> > sip: gerry at voip.w1ve.com
> > aim: w1ve
> > ym: w1ve
> > msn: w1ve at hotmail.com
> > Post and See Scores in Realtime - Try www.getscores.org 
> > _______________________________________________
> > CQ-Contest mailing list
> > CQ-Contest at contesting.com 
> > http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/cq-contest
> 
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-- 
Kenneth E. Harker WM5R
kenharker at kenharker.com
http://www.kenharker.com/