[CQ-Contest] CQ-Contest Digest, Vol 73, Issue 44

Fri Jan 30 10:44:51 EST 2009

Dave,

I couldn't agree more with your position on public logs.   Contesting is
a hobby, and a great one at that, but the log checking craze and public
publication of a log is all a bit much for me.  Contesting is a
gentlemen's game.   Let's leave a hobby a hobby - there is nothing real
at stake.  For 50 years contesting didn't need any additional
transparency and we didn't suffer for a lack of it.   

We all can think of many ways cheaters can game the system and never get
caught - it's their loss and their problem - and no amount of rules,
oversight, log checking will rectify the problem, plus given the fact
that this is hobby based on international goodwill and fun - who really
cares? We should spend our free time and free energy on trying to get
new, young people involved in the hobby so that 25 years from now,
people will see your CQ WW #1 score and actually be interested.

When you submit your log you are telling the contest committee that you
participated within the rules and are now making a formal entry.  If
cheating is suspected, the contest committee should privately contact
the contester in question and request clarification -  assuming
innocence, ignorance or mistake before duplicitous double dealing.

The argument that if one has nothing to hide, they should thus be happy
to submit their logs.... is totally illogical.  It creates a false logic
sequence - that if one cheats it follows they do not want to submit
their logs.  Why would one cheat if they weren't trying to win? 

I participate in many many contests and rarely formally enter them.  For
me, contesting is about fun and about striving for personal bests while
making good contacts regardless of my score.  I post my personal results
and contest highlights on the 3830 web and that is the end of the
contest process for me.  I have tons of fun and having been doing this,
with few variations, for over 10 years.  

I don't accept the idea that I am depriving the committee of anything by
not submitting a log nor do I accept the premise that my non-submission
opens the door for creative cheaters.   

You've done a lot of great things for contesting and youth and
contesting that transcend this silly argument about public logs.  Thank
you for putting 6Y on the air with such a big signal.  Your
participation, in all forms, makes my experience more fun and for that I
am grateful.

73 jeff n1snb

-----Original Message-----
From: cq-contest-bounces at contesting.com
[mailto:cq-contest-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of
cq-contest-request at contesting.com
Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 7:04 AM
To: cq-contest at contesting.com
Subject: CQ-Contest Digest, Vol 73, Issue 44

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: CQWW CW & 6Y1V Logs (Paul O'Kane)
   2. CQWW CW & 6Y1V Logs (kr2q at optimum.net)
   3. Re: CQWW CW & 6Y1V Logs (W0MU Mike Fatchett)
   4. Re: CQWW CW & 6Y1V Logs (KI9A at aol.com)
   5. Re: CQWW CW & 6Y1V Logs (Albert Crespo)
   6. RES:  CQWW CW & 6Y1V Logs (py7rp)
   7. Re: CQWW CW & 6Y1V Logs (Pete Smith)
   8. Re: CQWW CW & 6Y1V Logs (Julius Fazekas)
   9. Does anyone make dust covers for paddles? (Barry)
  10. Re: CQWW CW & 6Y1V Logs (Sandy Taylor)
  11. Re: CQWW CW & 6Y1V Logs (Michael Coslo)
  12. Re: CQWW CW & 6Y1V Logs (Steve London)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 09:17:29 -0000
From: "Paul O'Kane" <pokane at ei5di.com>
Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] CQWW CW & 6Y1V Logs
To: <cq-contest at contesting.com>
Message-ID: <84B01A39B46A4AECBD93567601FB5F73 at paul>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252";
	reply-type=original

In any competitive human activity, it's usual for the actions
of competitors to be subject to public scrutiny.  How else can
the winners be determined without endless bickering from the
losers?

This applies whether the winners get prizes or merely bragging
rights.

With the publication of contest logs, much of the opportunity
for bickering is removed - unless, of course, a log shows the
entrant broke one or more rules, or there is evidence of such.

Apart from casual contesters who don't expect to win anything,
to withhold a contest log seems a bit extreme.  A protest it
may be, but the inferences are often negative.

I have declined to submit logs where I didn't agree with the
contest rules - it didn't stop me taking part and having fun.
But it seems to be an odd option for a "super-station", a
potential winner, considering the time and expense involved
for all concerned.

73,
Paul EI5DI

------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 11:34:14 +0000 (GMT)
From: kr2q at optimum.net
Subject: [CQ-Contest] CQWW CW & 6Y1V Logs
To: cq-contest at contesting.com
Message-ID: <e2c3da5b227e.4982e5b6 at optonline.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Dave:

I fully support your right to not submit your log.

I have just reread the CQWW Rules and I do not see any explanation of
"why" the logs 
are made public, so I have to wonder where you got your information
about "quelling" fear
of cheating or that public logs had anything at all do with "cheating."
I am not being
rhetorical, I would genuinely like to know the source.  

And reading your memo, one might conclude that you didn't know that this
policy existed
prior to the 2008 CQWW.  This was not a new policy for 2008; logs have
been previously
made public and has been so stated in the previous CQWW Rules.

Again, it is your right to not submit the 6Y1V log and I will never
challenge you on that right.

de Doug KR2Q

------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 21:27:13 -0700
From: "W0MU Mike Fatchett" <w0mu at w0mu.com>
Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] CQWW CW & 6Y1V Logs
To: "'David Kopacz'" <david.kopacz at aspwebhosting.com>,
	<cq-contest at contesting.com>
Message-ID: <DCCE384BD5164C4687867EDA2E6C8F45 at hamtower>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="US-ASCII"

So does this mean that 6Y1V will be DQed as the rules read that electric
logs are required for high scoring entrants or did 6Y1V just not submit
anything to CQ?

If there is nothing to hide and you stand behind your score then what do
you
have to worry about?

I can see why some would not want other to see their logs as it
potentially
could expose a strategy that others may not be on to aside from any
nefarious activities.

I guess if you are not intending to follow the rules then don't operate
or
don't submit your logs for consideration of winning an award. 

Mike W0MU

-----Original Message-----
From: cq-contest-bounces at contesting.com
[mailto:cq-contest-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of David Kopacz
Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 4:54 PM
To: cq-contest at contesting.com
Subject: [CQ-Contest] CQWW CW & 6Y1V Logs

6Y1V did not submit its log to CQ Magazine for the CQWW CW contest in
2008.

I personally thank my guest operators Kelly VE4XT and Gary W5ZL for
granting
me the flexibility to make this decision. I want to stress that my
opinions
below are my own, not theirs. They neither condoned nor condemn my
action;
they simply agreed to provide me the latitude to make the decision
without
prejudice. For this alone, they are to be commended. In addition, they
are
both fine gentlemen and fantastic operators.

I am not in agreement with the CQWW committee's decision to publish logs
without the implicit consent of the log owner simply to quell a fear of
cheating, real or perceived. Note that I do think quell is a highly
appropriate term here. If cheating is suspected, it should be dealt with
privately and quietly between the committee and the accused. If outside
assistance is needed to review logs, it should be solicited privately by
the
committee. If someone is found to be cheating, then making that
knowledge
public should be done at the discretion of the committee, but based upon
firm rules applied equally to all.

While I understand the new policy's intent, the results may be akin to a
public flogging in a town square. It's likely that eventually someone
will
be accused of cheating when they are truly not guilty. The accusation
will
most likely come from someone other than the contest committee. Imagine
if
the contest committee doesn't make the painstaking effort necessary to
thoroughly review the  log of the accused in order to publicly exonerate
him/her.

The perception of being accused alone will leave lasting scars for the
innocent contester as most competitors will not independently research
the
facts themselves in order to exonerate the accused; thereby leaving the
impression the accuser is correct.

Our society has moved beyond this method of social restraint, so why is
amateur radio contesting moving in the opposite direction?

In my opinion, in a hobby where the stakes are so low, there is no
monetary
reward and most of us do this just for fun, the idea of forcing people
to
open their personal logs for worldwide inspection is not only ludicrous
but
it is downright shameful. The contest committees might as well just be
saying "We don't trust our fellow amateurs". For a hobby founded on
International brotherhood and goodwill, this is a very sad time.

Since I did not have an opportunity to express my opinion during the
decision making process, my only recourse is to publicly object and not
turn
in my logs. Some have suggested I shouldn't participate at all. Why
should I
stop having fun just to make my point? Besides, if a few dozen
participants
with large logs stop sending them, it just may have a significant impact
upon the log checking process and eventually the committee may see that
not
only is this decision unpopular but it has consequences as well.

While opening my log to anyone that asks is really no big deal, having
the
right to decide to whom and when I open it is a big deal. I choose to
open
my logs to the contest committee, but I choose not to open them to the
world. In addition, I choose not to enable a system that assumes guilt
before innocence.

David ~ KY1V

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------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 06:47:15 EST
From: KI9A at aol.com
Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] CQWW CW & 6Y1V Logs
To: cq-contest at contesting.com
Message-ID: <c6c.410162ca.36b442c3 at aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

Maybe I am missing something here.

A log is made available to contest sponsors, for sometimes, extreme  
examination, and contesters generally have no problem with that.

But, when they are made public, for all to see, there is such a huge  
problem, that a super station has refused to submit one?

What can the public find in it, that the sponsors can't? Perhaps
revealing  
operating techniques, and strategy?  If that is the problem, JUST SAY
IT!  
Don't dance around your problem.

Heck, I have issues with contest rules for many contests..enough to make

threads on here until next fall, but, I still enter, and HAVE FUN with
radio  
sport.

Oh well, can't please everyone I guess.

73- Chuck KI9A

**************Know Your Numbers: Get tips and tools to help you improve
your 
credit score. 
(http://www.walletpop.com/credit/credit-reports?ncid=emlcntuswall0000000
2)

------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 12:06:10 -0000
From: "Albert Crespo" <f5vhj at orange.fr>
Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] CQWW CW & 6Y1V Logs
To: <cq-contest at contesting.com>
Message-ID: <F9ED53C945F145A2B101BF2EE29200AF at F5VHJ>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="US-ASCII"

It would not be surprised if 6Y1V contacts start to show up in logs in
greater frequency then in the past. Since there will be no way to verify
6Y1V QSOs, this multiplier is ripe to be added to those who have
"creative"
logs.
Many contacts get logged that are questionable because of QRM, QRN, or
whatever that are later labeled NIL. That is nothing new. 
In the old days before electronic logs, these questionable contacts just
got
counted in most cases because of the sheer enormity of verification for
every contact. Now they can be weeded out through the useage of
electronic
logs.
If everyone followed the stand of 6Y1V, then we would go back to old
days of
paper logging when verifying contacts was very hit and miss. It would
damage
the whole system of trying to make sure that accuracy counts.
I doubt many will want to go back to this old system which was subject
to
abuse and arbitrary evaluation of logs.
If you do not want to play the game by the rules, try to change the
rules.
If you cannot do so, then you don't play  the game.
As for public logs, when I bother to check why I am not in somebody's
log
that I have received a NIL , it is helpful to me to find out if someone
was
so off base in copying my call that I am not in it, or that that person
never actually heard the QSO and the fault was at my end.

----Original Message-----
From: cq-contest-bounces at contesting.com
[mailto:cq-contest-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of W0MU Mike
Fatchett
Sent: 30 January 2009 04:27
To: 'David Kopacz'; cq-contest at contesting.com
Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] CQWW CW & 6Y1V Logs

So does this mean that 6Y1V will be DQed as the rules read that electric
logs are required for high scoring entrants or did 6Y1V just not submit
anything to CQ?

If there is nothing to hide and you stand behind your score then what do
you
have to worry about?

I can see why some would not want other to see their logs as it
potentially
could expose a strategy that others may not be on to aside from any
nefarious activities.

I guess if you are not intending to follow the rules then don't operate
or
don't submit your logs for consideration of winning an award. 

Mike W0MU

-----Original Message-----
From: cq-contest-bounces at contesting.com
[mailto:cq-contest-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of David Kopacz
Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 4:54 PM
To: cq-contest at contesting.com
Subject: [CQ-Contest] CQWW CW & 6Y1V Logs