[CQ-Contest] Ethics of operating overtime in SS

Wed Oct 30 08:19:54 EDT 2013

There is another rather esoteric fact regarding the rules in SS and the log checking described below...

 Listening time counts as operating time according to the rules.  There is no way to mark listening time in the Cabrillo log. In fact there is no way to account for CQ without answer time.   

The last time I operated SS it was pointed out to me when i submitted a top ten log that I didn't have the full 1440 minutes.  The reason I didn't have the full 1440 minutes is that I had manually kept track of on time and it included listening time and CQ without answer time.  

The fact is that until recently with SDR recordings there would be no way to enforce the current rule regarding CQ without answer time and there will never be a way to enforce listening time.

In my "personal" opinion the rules should say that off time will be those periods when there are 30 minutes between logged contacts and rubber clocking is not allowed. 

73...Stan, K5GO

Sent from Stan's IPhone

On Oct 29, 2013, at 10:10 AM, W0MU Mike Fatchett <w0mu at w0mu.com> wrote:

> Then change the rules to reflect reality.  Announce it officially and post it on the official website.
> 
> Mike W0MU
> 
> On 10/29/2013 7:34 AM, Bob Naumann wrote:
>> Phantom points?  This is intriguing.
>> 
>> Exactly who is being treated unfairly here? And how so?
>> 
>> What if someone makes an honest mistake and he or she thinks he or she took
>> 6 hours off, but only took 5.  Should everyone who worked that station
>> during the 25th hour lose those contacts, points and multipliers?  I think
>> not.
>> 
>> When you think of it from this perspective, it becomes clearer that
>> operating after your 24 hours should be treated as it is; which is that only
>> your first 24 hours counts.  The ARRL is handling this situation properly.
>> 
>> Nothing you do after that adds to your score or benefits you in any way -
>> but those you work during your 25th hour earn points for those qsos as they
>> should.
>> 
>> To me, this is more like a single band 10m entry making qsos on 160 at night
>> when 10m is closed.  Those QSOs don't count towards his 10m single band
>> score, but everyone he works on 160 earns full credit.
>> 
>> There's nothing "phantom" or unfair going on here.
>> 
>> Generally speaking, contest sponsors are in favor of anything that increases
>> activity.
>> 
>> Operating more than 24 hours in the SS provides no benefit to the operator
>> doing it, just like the 10m single band entry making qsos on other bands.
>> All these activities do is increase enjoyment and activity for others.
>> 
>> From my perspective, anyone who operates more than 24 hours in SS
>> (especially fone) deserves some sort of commendation.
>> 
>> How can there be any opposition to this?
>> 
>> 73,
>> 
>> Bob W5OV
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: CQ-Contest [mailto:cq-contest-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of
>> W0MU Mike Fatchett
>> Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 11:19 PM
>> Cc: cq-contest at contesting.com
>> Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] Ethics of operating overtime in SS
>> 
>> It harms no one?
>> 
>> Anyone working guys after 24 hours is giving out "phantom" points that
>> should not count.  So VE4 or any one should be able to continue to give
>> out that mult and/or points after their time has expired?
>> 
>> Lets say K0EU worked VE4AA and both were in their allotted 24 hour
>> periods.  VE4AA continues to operate over the allotted 24 hours and K7BG
>> still needed VE4 and finds VE4AA and works him.  VE4AA is the only VE4
>> in K7BG's log.
>> 
>> K7BG ends up beating K0EU in the end  by a few points and nobody is harmed?
>> 
>> The rules clearly state to operate 24 hours.  End of story.  It does not
>> say stay on and continue to hand out one sided points. Contacts made
>> after your 24 hour period is over should not count for either party as
>> you are clearly operating outside the rules the way they are currently
>> written.  After 24 hours are up YOUR contest period is over, done, finished.
>> 
>> I am quite surprised to read that K5ZD operates 5 to 10 minutes longer
>> to make sure he gets his 1440 minutes in.  Does that mean it is ok to
>> operate CQ WW till around 0010 then?  What exactly is the difference?
>> If your contest period is over it is over. Obviously,  the CQ WW ends
>> for everyone at 0000z.  Our computers are able to calculate time very
>> accurately, how did we manage when we did this on paper?
>> 
>> Car races end after X laps by the car finishing first, they do not
>> continue on till the car that is down 20 laps finishes the other 20 laps
>> with all the other cars still running around the track racing.
>> 
>> DQ?  A bit harsh but maybe not if the Qso's made after the time period
>> are removed from your log and you lose by a qso that was wasted working
>> someone who really should not be operating anymore.
>> 
>> What do you do?  You don't ignore the rules because the log checking
>> program just tosses out one side of contacts made outside the allotted
>> 24 hours.
>> 
>> The problem is that not everyone in the contest is really in the
>> contest.  I could go to KP2A with a bunch of guys and we chose to
>> operate KP2A Multi-Multi for 30 hours and don't submit a score so there
>> is no problem right?  Those submitting a log to be considered for
>> scoring should follow each and every rule.
>> 
>> When people interpret clearly written rules like this to meet their own
>> objectives does it really surprise people when others are trying to
>> stretch the rules?
>> 
>> I never realized there were the written rules and then a bunch of rules
>> only known to those who do the log checking, etc.......... The rules
>> don't seem to reflect reality.
>> 
>> Mike W0MU
>> 
>>   On 10/28/2013 6:03 PM, George Fremin III wrote:
>>> On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 04:52:35PM -0600, W0MU Mike Fatchett wrote:
>>>> The rules are pretty clear.  Apparently what they are doing wit the logs
>>>> is contrary to the rules.  Maybe the rules should be more clearly
>>>> written.  Why have rules that you don't enforce?
>>>> 
>>>> It is pretty clear that the rules say to operate 24 of the 30. They do
>>>> not say if you operate more than 24 hours your score will be determined
>>>> by the first 24 hours of operation.
>>>> 
>>>> So what is it ARRL?
>>> Huh?
>>> 
>>> I think the log checking is enforcing the 24 hour time limit just fine.
>>> 
>>> How else should they handle a log that is over time?
>>> 
>>> DQ the entrant?
>>> 
>>> The rule sets a time limit to the operating period.
>>> 
>>> If someone operates more than the 1440 minutes of on time then
>>> it makes sense to me to enforce it just as they do - by removing
>>> all the points that are made after 1440 minutes of on time.
>>> 
>>> It is not to your advantage to operate more that 1440 minutes and as far
>>> as I can tell it harms no one.
>>> 
>>>>> 2.4. All entries may operate no more than 24 of the 30 hours.
>>>>> 2.5. Off periods may not be less than 30 minutes in length.
>>>>> 2.6. Times off and on must be clearly noted in paper logs. In
>>>>> electronically-submitted Cabrillo logs, off-times are calculated by the
>>>>> log-checking software.
>>>>> 2.7. Listening time counts as operating time.
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