[CQ-Contest] KU1CW location

Wed Jun 7 18:00:06 EDT 2017

It's true that the CEPT agreement seems to require boots on the ground in
the USA to operate a station here.

But this becomes a moot point if the foreign operator obtains a trophy
Amateur Extra license in the USA.   Then their privileges to remotely
operate a USA station are not affected by any "lesser" privileges in their
home country.

73, de Hans, K0HB

On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 12:42 Peter Bowyer <peter at bowyer.org> wrote:

> Bob
>
> The scope of CEPT Recommendation T/R 61-01, to which the US is a
> signatory and under which 97.101 grants reciprocal privileges, is for
> short-term visitors to the country concerned. By omission, remote
> operation from outside the country is excluded.
>
> You can find the full text of the Recommendation here
> http://www.ecodocdb.dk/Docs/doc98/official/pdf/TR6101.pdf. You'll note
> that the US is listed in Appendix 4 as a non-CEPT member who has
> applied and been accepted under the Recommendation, meaning its
> privileges apply multilaterally between the US and the other
> signatories.
>
> 97.101 further restricts the licensee to the operating conditions of
> their home license, which is more restrictive than 61-01. Hence no >
> 400W for G licensees, etc.
>
> I agree with others that a formal ruling from contest sponsors or the
> FCC on remote operation would be welcome, but it's clear that remote
> operation is not within the scope of 61-01.
>
> Peter
>
> On 7 June 2017 at 17:18,  <w5ov at w5ov.com> wrote:
> > And, nowhere in that agreement does it support anything you're claiming.
> >
> > Please quote any legal document that explicitly says otherwise.
> >
> > 73,
> >
> > Bob W5OV
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, June 7, 2017 11:23 am, Peter Bowyer wrote:
> >> Bob
> >>
> >>
> >> You failed to quote 97.107(b)(1). Which says :-
> >>
> >>
> >> "The terms of the agreement between the alien's government and the
> >> United States;"
> >>
> >>
> >> There is a multilateral operating agreement between the US and the
> >> CEPT countries.
> >>
> >>
> >> Peter
> >>
> >>
> >> On 7 June 2017 at 15:29,  <w5ov at w5ov.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Peter,
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Can you quote an actual rule that says what you claim?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> In Part 97.107, nothing like what you and others are alleging is
> >>> justified, nor even mentioned.  In the USA, the FCC rules take
> >>> precedence in all cases, and there is nothing in the FCC rules that
> >>> supports your claim of CEPT rules taking precedence over any operations
> >>> within the USA under any circumstances.
> >>>
> >>> Specifically:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> 97.107 (b)(2)
> >>> "The operating terms and conditions of the amateur service license
> >>> granted by the alien's government"
> >>>
> >>> This does not say anything about operating privileges. They are covered
> >>> in the next part.  The "terms and conditions *of the amateur service
> >>> license*" refer explicitly to only the *license* and its validity -
> >>> issue dates, expirations, etc.
> >>>
> >>> In contrast, operating privileges are discussed *explicitly* in the
> >>> next part:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> In the case of the UK:  97.107(b)(3) applies:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> "The applicable rules of this part, but not to exceed the control
> >>> operator privileges of an FCC-granted Amateur Extra Class operator
> >>> license".
> >>>
> >>> This is germane regarding operating privileges and what it says is:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> "The applicable rules of this part" which means all USA allocations,
> >>> modes, restrictions and all other rules and regulations that apply in
> >>> the USA *for Extra Class operators*.  In other words, All foreigners
> >>> eligible for reciprocal operating are granted full USA Extra Class
> >>> privileges - but no more.
> >>>
> >>> As one example of "no more", reciprocal licensees cannot operate SSB in
> >>>  the USA CW / Digital bands, even though their licenses back home may
> >>> permit it.
> >>>
> >>> In all cases, USA FCC Law takes precedence over all other countries'
> >>> rules.
> >>>
> >>> That is what it *actually* says.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> You're adding things to it that it does not say.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> 73,
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Bob W5OV
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, June 7, 2017 3:08 am, Peter Bowyer wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Yes, but the conditions under which the reciprocal privileges are
> >>>> granted (in this case ) are governed by CEPT and adopted by FCC. In
> >>>> order to benefit from the CEPT arrangements, FCC has to adopt its
> >>>> rules.
> >>>>
> >>>> The 'no remote operation' principle comes from the CEPT rules.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Peter G4MJS
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On 6 Jun 2017 10:46 p.m., <w5ov at w5ov.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> From what I read at the link you provided, it is precisely as I
> >>>>> said:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "US Law applies and the operators must comply with FCC rules as if
> >>>>> they were physically within the USA".
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I see nothing that changes that.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> More specifically, anyone operating a remote station in the USA
> >>>>> must obey the USA FCC Law as if they were here in the USA.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 73,
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Bob W5OV
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Mon, June 5, 2017 12:02 pm, Peter Bowyer wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Sorry Bob you're wrong there. FCC has adopted the CEPT T/R 61-01
> >>>>>> regulation to make reciprocal licensing easier.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> http://www.arrl.org/foreign-licenses-operating-in-u-s
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Peter G4MJS
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On 5 June 2017 at 13:07,  <w5ov at w5ov.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> N2RJ said:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> " Just be careful that you are indeed doing so. CEPT T/R 61-01
> >>>>>>> is not sufficient authorization for a European licensee to
> >>>>>>> operate an internet remote base in the US while being physically
> >>>>>>> present overseas...."
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> EU rules do not apply to amateur radio transmissions made from
> >>>>>>> within the USA under any circunstances.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Where the operator is located is completely irrelevant.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> What happens on the air from a USA station is governed by US
> >>>>>>> FCC
> >>>>>>> Law -
> >>>>>>> nothing else.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> US Law applies and the operators must comply with FCC rules as
> >>>>>>> if they were physically within the USA.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> 73,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Bob W5OV
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>>> From: CQ-Contest [mailto:cq-contest-bounces at contesting.com] On
> >>>>>>> Behalf
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>> Of
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>> Ria
> >>>>>>> Jairam
> >>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, June 3, 2017 5:53 PM
> >>>>>>> To: W4AAW at aol.com
> >>>>>>> Cc: CQ-Contest Reflector <cq-contest at contesting.com>
> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] KU1CW location
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> W1VE and other serious operators of remote-capable stations
> >>>>>>>> will agree with me:  We remote-capable stations are not trying
> >>>>>>>> to fool anyone or gain some sort of geographical or unfair
> >>>>>>>> advantage. We're
> >>>>>>>> just being
> >>>>>>> competitive and striving to do so strictly within the rules.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> There is really nothing wrong with trying to gain an advantage
> >>>>>>> during a contest. That's what contesting is. As long as it is
> >>>>>>> within the rules. Operating from elsewhere to do better in
> >>>>>>> contests has been a staple of contesting for pretty much as long
> >>>>>>> as it has existed.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> 2. Alex is a member of TeamW4AAW, which operates the first
> >>>>>>>> Totally
> >>>>>>>> Remote
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> M/M station.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> We have 31 team members who operate W4AAW's positions from
> >>>>>>>> all over NA, from Panama,  Europe and Asia, provided they meet
> >>>>>>>> legal/licensing
> >>>>>>> requirements.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Just be careful that you are indeed doing so. CEPT T/R 61-01 is
> >>>>>>> not sufficient authorization for a European licensee to operate
> >>>>>>> an internet remote base in the US while being physically present
> >>>>>>>  overseas. Even if they were allowed, their home license
> >>>>>>> restrictions and power limits (while not exceeding US Extra)
> >>>>>>> apply. In the UK it is 400 watts for full licenses and in
> >>>>>>> Germany it is 750W for class A licenses. Other
> >>>>>>> European countries
> >>>>>>> may be different. The best thing for them to do to be compliant
> >>>>>>> with the laws of the US is to get a US license. There are VE
> >>>>>>> sessions in many countries overseas and one can get a license by
> >>>>>>> passing the (now very
> >>>>>>> easy) exams. No code required, even.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> 4.  The 3830 comments for KU1CW @ W4AAW in the CQWPX CW test
> >>>>>>>> very clearly show the  locations of each operator.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> An awards chaser who isn't competing in the contest is unlikely
> >>>>>>> to know about nor care about 3830. The best thing to do would be
> >>>>>>> to put the location of the stations in the QRZ profile, which is
> >>>>>>> the first place they look.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> 73
> >>>>>>> Ria, N2RJ
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Fri, Jun 2, 2017 at 4:30 PM, W4AAW at aol.com via CQ-Contest
> >>>>>>> <cq-contest at contesting.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Here is the correct information on KU1CW in the CQWPX CW
> >>>>>>>> contest.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> 1. Alex has just moved to Washington State.  He has not yet
> >>>>>>>> modified his
> >>>>>>> license to reflect this recent development.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> 2. Alex is a member of TeamW4AAW, which operates the first
> >>>>>>>> Totally
> >>>>>>>> Remote
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> M/M station.  We have 31 team members who operate W4AAW's
> >>>>>>> positions from all over NA, from Panama, Europe and Asia,
> >>>>>>> provided they meet legal/licensing requirements.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> 3. Since a W4 call sign is common in WPX tests, I suggested
> >>>>>>>> to Alex
> >>>>>>>> we use
> >>>>>>> KU1CW for the contest.  Alex agreed. So, the entry (as shown on
> >>>>>>>  3830)
> >>>>>>> was KU1CW@ W4AAW.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> 4.  The 3830 comments for KU1CW @ W4AAW in the CQWPX CW test
> >>>>>>>> very clearly
> >>>>>>> show the locations of each operator.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> If some people had bothered to read information that is
> >>>>>>>> readily available
> >>>>>>> in that posting, it would not have been necessary to cast
> >>>>>>> aspersions.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> During some periods of the contest, Alex even operated SO2R,
> >>>>>>>> using two
> >>>>>>> W4AAW positions remotely, from Washington State.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> W1VE and other serious operators of remote-capable stations
> >>>>>>>> will agree
> >>>>>>> with me:  We remote-capable stations are not trying to fool
> >>>>>>> anyone or gain some sort of geographical or unfair advantage.
> >>>>>>> We're just
> >>>>>>> being competitive and striving to do so strictly within the
> >>>>>>> rules.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Cheers!
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> 73, Mike W4AAW
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>> CQ-Contest mailing list
> >>>>>>>> CQ-Contest at contesting.com
> >>>>>>>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/cq-contest
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>> CQ-Contest mailing list
> >>>>>>> CQ-Contest at contesting.com
> >>>>>>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/cq-contest
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>> CQ-Contest mailing list
> >>>>>>> CQ-Contest at contesting.com
> >>>>>>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/cq-contest
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>> CQ-Contest mailing list
> >>>>>> CQ-Contest at contesting.com
> >>>>>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/cq-contest
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> CQ-Contest mailing list
> >>>> CQ-Contest at contesting.com
> >>>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/cq-contest
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> CQ-Contest mailing list
> >> CQ-Contest at contesting.com
> >> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/cq-contest
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
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>
-- 
73, de Hans, K0HB
--
"Just a boy and his radio"™