[CQ-Contest] Impact of FT* Modes on DXpeditions

robert wa1fcn at charter.net
Fri Aug 16 10:21:46 EDT 2019


GM Ria

         A few comments:

         I have no information and did not comment on "conspiracies about it

         being a money thing "

         Your achievements are very nice.  Did you use Low Power?

         Were FT8 part of this ?  During the 6 months of my using FT8

         about 1 1/2 years ago I could not believe the number of YB's 
and other

         rare DX that were easily worked on 40 meters. Is it really fair 
for so many

         other many hams trying for a decent number of DXCC countries for

         years to all of a sudden see others with high country totals 
using FT8

         after just a couple years ?

             FT8 certainly has it's place in ham radio, but the ARRL 
DXCC program

         needs a serious new look when it comes mixing up FT8 with CW,

         SSB, and RTTY.

                 73 BoB WA1FCN

On 8/15/2019 8:32 AM, rjairam at gmail.com wrote:
> It took me 13 years to get 327 DXCC, challenge 1900+ and 9 band DXCC 
> including 160. I did my first DXCC in one year from a mobile station 
> with a 6 foot whip.
>
> I did most of it on CW.
>
> I really don’t see how FT8 made it any easier.
>
> The reason it takes so little time now is because of the DX cluster 
> and all of the data aggregation tools.
>
> The game changes, and if anything FT8 has made it harder for those of 
> us who can just get in/out of a CW/SSB pileup because we developed 
> that skill. But it has made DX possible for those who live in 
> apartments and other heavily restricted places.
>
> At the League we discuss this and the consensus generally is that FT8 
> is popular and brings in new operators. It’s a good thing. Separating 
> them would tell ops who operate this mode that they are somehow not 
> real hams or real DXers which is not a message to be sending. 
> Especially since the average age of DXers is trending higher.
>
> The conspiracies about it being a money thing really aren’t valid. If 
> anything processing the increased volume of QSLs and LoTW server load 
> costs the League money, so it’s definitely not a money maker.
>
> 73
> Ria
> N2RJ
>
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 15, 2019 at 9:08 AM robert <wa1fcn at charter.net 
> <mailto:wa1fcn at charter.net>> wrote:
>
>          GM Matts/Yuri
>
>              I agree with you about the ARRL's DXCC credit system.
>
>              A mistake for sure.  As a life long low power operator it has
>
>              taken me 54 years to reach 40 meter DXCC of 280. By allowing
>
>              FT8 credits mixed  in with every thing I foresee in the near
>     future,
>
>              many achieving  this in 10 years  or less of effort.   At
>     the
>     next sun spot
>
>              cycle peak high DXCC totals on 10,  12, and 15 will be
>     meaningless. I
>
>              know of  hams who no longer take part in DXCC for just
>     this reason.
>
>              FT8 credit for DXCC is fine, but keep it separated from
>     single
>     band/mixed
>
>              mode totals.
>
>                      74 BoB WA1FCN
>
>     On 8/15/2019 1:30 AM, Mats Strandberg wrote:
>     > I tend to agree with Yury.
>     >
>     > CY9 was much more balanced between modes, than the 3D2 (or least
>     that was
>     > my perception).
>     >
>     > It might be so that at the time of John’s (GD) participation in
>     KP5 and
>     > KP1, that there was no ambition to maximize the revenue through
>     donations
>     > (before, during and after the expedition). I don’t question that.
>     >
>     > However, since FT8 appeared as an equal mode for DXCC (along
>     with CW,SSB
>     > and RTTY), it definitely has changed some expeditions into becoming
>     > automated QSO/QSL-creating machines...
>     >
>     > John, during KP1/KP5, the FT modes were not available, so
>     comparison might
>     > not be fully relevant.
>     >
>     > It is maybe good that FT8 will bring new “DXers” to the table,
>     but the
>     > appearance of this dull mode... has forever changed the feeling
>     of “being
>     > on the other side of the expedition”, and most likely also, being an
>     > operator of that expedition as well.
>     >
>     > I question myself, what is the pleasure of being that rare DX,
>     giving out
>     > the ATNOs and the new band points, when the reality is that NO
>     operator
>     > skills are required from me to make those “contacts” happen!
>     >
>     > Before, good DX-expeditions we’re separated by less good ones,
>     because of
>     > operator skills. How wonderful was it not to listen to great
>     operators,
>     > handling thousand of callers, to maximize the number of contacts
>     and happy
>     > DXers on the other side?
>     >
>     > Those days were interesting and a memory of our past. The new
>     FT8 euphoria
>     > has forever changed the perception of DX-big, thanks to ARRL’s
>     greed for
>     > award revenue ;(
>     >
>     > And, what we now see is the result of the wrong decision to
>     equalize FTx,
>     > JT and other artificial modes, with RTTY, SSB and CW, and accept
>     them for
>     > DXCC Mixed.
>     >
>     > The correct way would have been to create FT/JT DXCC separate
>     from Classic
>     > DXCC...
>     >
>     > DXCC as we all knew it, has been hurt tremendously by ARRL
>     unthoughtful
>     > decision to accept FT/JT in Mixed!
>     >
>     > 73 de RM2D (Mats)
>     >
>     > On Thu, 15 Aug 2019 at 05:14, John Crovelli <w2gd at hotmail.com
>     <mailto:w2gd at hotmail.com>> wrote:
>     >
>     >> I want to take a moment to dispel the notion suggested by Yuri that
>     >> DXpedition operating strategy is all about financial
>     considerations.  It
>     >> simply isn't for well planned operations.
>     >>
>     >> It is the intent of virtually every DXpedition to provide an
>     opportunity
>     >> for those running 100 watts or more to work an ATNO. 
>     DXpeditions teams are
>     >> constantly considering ways to reach the broadest possible
>     audience while
>     >> on site.
>     >>
>     >> The implication that operating strategy and mode selection is
>     all about
>     >> post operation donations (to cover costs) is just not true. 
>     Well organized
>     >> teams have these issues resolved well in advance.
>     >>
>     >> I've been on some large DXpeditions (KP5 and KP1 - both were
>     top ten
>     >> world).  Our operating teams NEVER set goals based upon
>     donations, and in
>     >> fact, this issue was never even discussed since no one felt it
>     to be
>     >> important.  Again, financing issues were resolved well before
>     we ever
>     >> departed for the islands.
>     >>
>     >> We did however (on a daily basis) take stock of propagation,
>     probably of
>     >> openings, and how we were providing global coverage ... to
>     prevent missing
>     >> opportunities to those regions traditionally most difficult. 
>     As a tool,
>     >> FT8 can be useful.
>     >>
>     >> FT8 modes are providing options not previously available and
>     for the most
>     >> part now replaces RTTY activity.   It is my expectation CW and
>     SSB will
>     >> always be the main modes for DXpeditions.
>     >>
>     >> John, W2GD aka P40W/P44W
>     >>
>     >> ________________________________
>     >> From: CQ-Contest <cq-contest-bounces at contesting.com
>     <mailto:cq-contest-bounces at contesting.com>> on behalf of Yuri <
>     >> ve3dz at rigexpert.net <mailto:ve3dz at rigexpert.net>>
>     >> Sent: Wednesday, August 7, 2019 4:57 PM
>     >> To: 'Jeff Clarke' <ku8e at ku8e.com <mailto:ku8e at ku8e.com>>;
>     cq-contest at contesting.com <mailto:cq-contest at contesting.com> <
>     >> cq-contest at contesting.com <mailto:cq-contest at contesting.com>>
>     >> Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] WW-Digi Contest -- Rule Clarification
>     >>
>     >>>>> Seems like the last two big Dxpeditions (CY9 and 3D2) are
>     putting FT8
>     >> first before the traditional CW/SSB modes. I sure hope this
>     isn't the
>     >> future of ham radio.
>     >>
>     >> I might not be politically correct, but why not to mention that
>     one of the
>     >> all of the DXpeditions' goals is to try to maximize the overall
>     QSO count
>     >> in order to get more donation? That's what hiding behind "best
>     kept secret"
>     >> (that everybody knows) of F/H mode in FT8 in my opinion.
>     >> I'm not saying it's bad or good, but it's a fact.
>     >> Multi-channel streams need to be prohibited, otherwise it looks
>     like
>     >> hypocrisy.
>     >> I still remember how the rules for M/S in the ARRL Contests
>     were changed
>     >> under the pressure after PJ4G(?) team managed to have 2
>     stations on the
>     >> same band (even not at the same time).
>     >>
>     >> Yuri VE3DZ
>     >>
>     >> -----Original Message-----
>     >> From: CQ-Contest [mailto:cq-contest-bounces at contesting.com
>     <mailto:cq-contest-bounces at contesting.com>] On Behalf Of
>     >> Jeff Clarke
>     >> Sent: Wednesday, August 7, 2019 10:51 AM
>     >> To: cq-contest at contesting.com <mailto:cq-contest at contesting.com>
>     >> Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] WW-Digi Contest -- Rule Clarification
>     >>
>     >> Didn't someone create a FT8 contest reflector? It would be nice
>     to take
>     >> all these comments over there. Seems like FT8 is monopolizing
>     the contest
>     >> reflector just like it is on the air.
>     >>
>     >> Seems like the last two big Dxpeditions (CY9 and 3D2) are
>     putting FT8
>     >> first before the traditional CW/SSB modes. I sure hope this
>     isn't the
>     >> future of ham radio.
>     >>
>     >> BTW I do operate some FT8 because I'm working on a the digital
>     DXCC.
>     >> (because there is hardly any RTTY activity outside of contests)
>     Now that
>     >> I've reached 100 countries I'm starting to get bored with it.
>     >>
>     >> Jeff
>     >>
>     >>
>     >>
>     >> _______________________________________________
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