[CQ-Contest] I don't hate FT8...for others
Dennis McAlpine
dbmcalpine73 at gmail.com
Thu Jul 25 14:03:57 EDT 2019
If there is an impression that I hate FT8/FT4, that is wrong. If someone
wants, or needs to (as might be for the case of those W6 guys), use a
digital mode, I have no objection. I just resent being forced to use it in
order to be even mildly competitive. And, it is clearly the case on VHF
contests, at least, that one must use FT8/4 to be even slightly competitive.
It is also clear that CW will soon disappear as a viable contest mode if it
is not protected in some way from the attack of digital modes. You remember
the case of the Dodo bird (in Morse that is spelled "-.-. .--"). Even
though people warned that the Dodo was near being extinct, no one listened
until it was too late. So, when was the last time you saw ("heard" in the
case of CW) a Dodo bird? I rest my case.
There is no question that the East Coast has an advantage over the West
Coast. But, let me point out that the Northeast Coast has a big advantage
over the Southeast. Look at the commentaries from NQ4I about the
disadvantages of living in GA vs. New England. Don't laugh, they were all
true. Maybe at the peak of the sunspot cycle, stations as far south and
west as the PA border can still win, but we ain't near one of those for
quite a while. But, FT-8 is not the salvation for the West Coasters. How
long will it be before they complain that the East Coasters have an
advantage over the West Coast in the digital modes too. Such is life in the
fast lane.
73,
Dennis, K2SX
-----Original Message-----
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Sent: July 25, 2019 12:00 PM
To: cq-contest at contesting.com
Subject: CQ-Contest Digest, Vol 199, Issue 25
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: possible changes for CQ VHF Contest (Mike Smith VE9AA)
2. Re: Possible changes for CQ VHF Contest (egruff at cox.net)
3. Re: SO2R interference help update (K4RO Kirk Pickering)
4. Re: SO2R interference help update (Mike Smith VE9AA)
5. Re: SO2R interference help update (donovanf at starpower.net)
6. Re: SO2R interference help update (Jim Brown)
7. Re: SO2R interference help update (Jim Brown)
8. Re: Possible changes for CQ VHF Contest (Tom Frenaye)
9. Re: Possible changes for CQ VHF Contest (Edward Sawyer)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 18:36:57 -0300
From: "Mike Smith VE9AA" <ve9aa at nbnet.nb.ca>
To: <cq-contest at contesting.com>
Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] possible changes for CQ VHF Contest
Message-ID: <000d01d54267$ec0bf910$c423eb30$@nbnet.nb.ca>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Not a chance Jim !
I do admit I had DXCC and many hundreds of grids before WAS on 6m. (Hawaii
was my holdout), but I can say without hesitation that if I could've worked
Hawaii in 2 yrs on FT8(or RTTY or PSK31) or wait til a CW or SSB op was on
in 5-7 yrs, I would've waited to 5-7 yrs..heck I had KH5/KH6ND a year or two
before Hawaii !
I don't ever complain about being far away from the Pacific or Japan. It's
much more thrilling when I do work them!
I finally worked Japan (legit) on CW a cpl years ago vs. making an almost
sure QSO on FT8 years earlier when there were already a handful of guys on
the JT modes being worked all over the continent.
But that's me. I get you're upset about living in W6 and not being able to
work EU on every band like we can on the East Coast, (and I appreciate
that.I still need most Pacific and Asian Entities on 6m) but it doesn't
change my view on how everyone seems be on 6m FT(squiggle) these days and
has mostly ruined my CW fun on that band.
73 and CU (all of a sudden) in the next one.
Mike VE9AA
On 7/23/2019 2:26 PM, Mike Smith VE9AA wrote:
I won't ever use the FT modes.even if it means missing a new country on 6m.
You won't -- you live where it's easy to work DXCC on any band! You might
think differently if you lived where that's not true, like Northern
California.
73, Jim K9YC
Mike, Coreen & Corey
Keswick Ridge, NB
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 15:00:35 -0700
From: <egruff at cox.net>
To: <CQ-Contest at contesting.com>
Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] Possible changes for CQ VHF Contest
Message-ID: <099b01d5426b$3a52daa0$aef88fe0$@cox.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
All,
I feel like I am fighting the same battle on alternate fronts here. It's
either "FT8 isn't real radio and shouldn't be allowed" or "No one needs to
run 1500 W to work DX". The common thread is that the originators of these
messages are almost exclusively hams on the East Coast (where I grew up and
operated for the first 13 years or so as a ham, so I have no inherent bias
against you guys, I promise).
You have to understand that propagation from the western half of the US is
NOTHING like it is where you live. On some bands, we haven't heard Europe in
a year or more. This includes 12, 10 and 6 Meters. On 160 M, it takes a kW+
to work Europe most nights, and FT8/JT65 are often the only modes that are
sensitive enough to pick them up. I have frequently reviewed my logs for
160, 80, 10 and 6 Meters, and more than half the contacts I've made in the
past three years (nadir of Solar Cycle 24) were with stations that were
weaker than -15 dB on digital modes. This is the commonly-accepted threshold
for being able to hear CW. So, without the weak-signal modes, I wouldn't
have made the contacts. It's great that you all are 2000 miles or less from
most of Europe, but remember that we are at least 5000 miles from the
continent. I'm not going to give up the chance to work new countries because
"it's not CW or SSB", and I suspect none of you would either.
For contests, a very similar situation exists. I am a semiserious contester
and prefer CW to all other modes. However, for multimode contests, I can't
hear, much less work many of the stations that you all work easily. While
FT8 is painfully slow compared to CW or SSB, at some point I can pick up
many more QSOs and some multipliers at the cost of a much lower rate with
FT8. Again, why shouldn't I take advantage of the opportunity instead of
turning off the radio? This weekend's CQ WW VHF contest was a great example.
In 4 hours that I had to operate, I made 15 CW and 5 or so SSB QSOs, all in
TX and FL. I was able to make 40 FT8 QSOs within the same window, many of
which were new grids in the contest. Looking at my log, fully 75% of them
were below the -15 dB threshold for CW. I bet that most of you East Coasters
were able to make more QSOs in one hour than I did in 4 and probably had
twice as many multipliers.
I'd love to impose a rule that before anyone can bitch about FT8, they
should have to run a contest from the West Coast. If you can get within 25%
of your score in the same contest from a prior year at your home QTH, I'll
take out a full-page ad in the newpaper of your choice to trumpet your
opinion. You guys just don't know how much better it is there. There is a
reason why there are fewer than two dozen 6 M DXCC awards earned by West
Coast stations since the award started. Some of us have multiple towers, big
yagis or stacks and run full QRO. You can argue how we do so much better to
Japan, and that's true, but it's ONE country. We also occasionally can work
China, Taiwan, S Korea and VK/ZL, but that's about it and they are 6000+
miles away. Certainly not the number of entities that are within 2000 miles
of you guys.
So, the next time you want to complain about why anyone would want to use
FT8, consider that we're all not as fortunate as you. It's far worse for our
fellow hams in KH6 and KL7. It's a great weak-signal mode that has a place
in radio. I'll never give up CW (phone is another story), but I have no
intention of quitting FT8 either and neither do many of my friends on this
side of the country. All we're asking is that you show a little
consideration for others that are in less favorable QTHs.
73,
Eric NC6K
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 17:05:56 -0500
From: K4RO Kirk Pickering <k4ro at k4ro.net>
To: cq-contest at contesting.com
Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] SO2R interference help update
Message-ID: <3535fdb1-a4d0-4c1c-9303-d4dbaf37e9a7 at k4ro.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Hi Dan,
Thanks for the many CWT QSOs.
If you are willing to download a 53MB PowerPoint file, take a look at the
brief MP4 movies on page 17 of the slide show at the link below. It
demonstrates what I've heard W3LPL call "swamping". In my case, it's a
circuit which contains some kind of junction which makes a mess on 20 when
transmitting on 40. I still have not been able to identify the root cause. I
just shut off the breaker when operating SO2R. The mp4 files show how
killing the breaker reduced the QRM from S9+ to S0. In the videos, I am
transmitting on 40 meters while receiving on 20 meters.
During a recent multi op here (WPX CW) our team discovered that a
seal-a-meal kitchen appliance was doing the same thing. It's on a different
circuit, and not related to the above swamping issue. The real kicker was
that it only caused QRM if used within the previous hour!
Something to do with the thermal sealing element, we suspect. The point is
that it can be ANYTHING. You'll probably have to start at the breaker box.
SO2R troubleshooting is a bit more complicated since you must have a
receiver and a transmitter running simultaneously to troubleshoot.
http://www.k4ro.net/k4ro/Single-Op-W4DXCC-2016/Single-Op.ppt
Good luck with your hunting.
73, --Kirk
On 7/24/2019 1:44 PM, Dan wrote:
> TNX to all who responded. I have a sense of direction and will begin
diagnosing.
>
> So far I have transmitted on 40 into a dummy load connected with a short
cable with Radio 1 (K3) and listened on 20 with the 1000MP on the tribander.
Turning the rotator seems to indicate the harmonic is coming from the shack.
Now I will be checking all cable and connectors, unplugging all wall warts
and eliminating any antenna switches in the path of the tribander. Probing
with my Tecsun SW on the harmonic has not revealed any true peaks on any
piece of gear so far but I?m just starting.
>
> If I have a revelation and/or some success I?ll repost with my results.
>
> As an aside I?m making a flow chart to show all antennas and switching for
future reference. Amazing how much ?stuff? gets added over the years!
>
> 73 Dan W8CAR
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 19:10:18 -0300
From: "Mike Smith VE9AA" <ve9aa at nbnet.nb.ca>
To: <cq-contest at contesting.com>
Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] SO2R interference help update
Message-ID: <001201d5426c$94bb6d30$be324790$@nbnet.nb.ca>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hi Dan,
I am late to the party. I am not your best resource, but will tell you that
I contest here on ~2.2acres
LP (and even some HP) nearly interference free with no filters and no stubs
! (gasp!)
My secret? Well..I do have 2+ acres to spread out on and have my antennas
separated as far as possible in a NW to SE line...NW is my least used
direction..at least until all the Japanese hams and F2 prop comes back.
My other secret? On radio #2 is only 1 horizontal antenna.( a modified
ZS6BKW )
On radio #1 is a variety of verticals or vertical arrays.
I did oscilloscope measurements for all antenna combinations and was w/in
the safe zone (even at HP), but there are some combos that create a little
hash on the 2nd band that's not conducive to doing true 2BSIQ.
F'rinstance, if I am beaming WNW (W7/JA) on 20m with my vertical 4-square I
am aimed right at my ZS6BKW if that was on 40m. Ditto if I was transmitting
on 40m, beaming NW..so I can really only can do Run + S/P on those band
combos when aimed NW..and sometimes even when aimed SW..the lobes are pretty
wide on my 4-squares. Most other bands I can do RUN/RUN or a very quiet
RUN+S/P if I choose.
So maybe that helps.I am not sure what you have for antennas, or maybe you
only have 1 antenna for each band.
I know my SO2R setup is not setting any fires in the Pacific (or even EU for
that matter) but I don't need band decoders, a full array of filters or even
switchable coax stubs..I tried some stubs and in 1 case it made it worse. I
will wait for Jim to tell me that I did it all wrong, hi !
I did get the FB book by George, W2VJN which helped with measurements.
I also swapped some power supplies around in the shack one time which then
lessened my interference and one time, for a quick test, physically swapped
radio #1 for radio #2 and it also lessened interference. I have no idea why
that worked.I just thought I'd try it. They are identical IC-7410's.
Lastly, you have to stay away from your harmonic. Ie: if you are on 7.010
you're going to destroy the area around 14.020, so park higher up in the
band.like 7.040 - because there are many less stns on 14.080 for example
HTH
Mike VE9AA
TNX to all who responded. I have a sense of direction and will begin
diagnosing.
So far I have transmitted on 40 into a dummy load connected with a short
cable
with Radio 1 (K3) and listened on 20 with the 1000MP on the tribander.
Turning
the rotator seems to indicate the harmonic is coming from the shack. Now I
will
be checking all cable and connectors, unplugging all wall warts and
eliminating
any antenna switches in the path of the tribander. Probing with my Tecsun SW
on
the harmonic has not revealed any true peaks on any piece of gear so far but
I'm just starting.
If I have a revelation and/or some success I'll repost with my results.
As an aside I'm making a flow chart to show all antennas and switching for
future reference. Amazing how much "stuff" gets added over the years!
73 Dan W8CAR
[CQ-Contest] SO2R interference help update
Mike, Coreen & Corey
Keswick Ridge, NB
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 21:59:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: donovanf at starpower.net
To: cq-contest at contesting.com
Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] SO2R interference help update
Message-ID:
<875105135.21397626.1564019960023.JavaMail.root at starpower.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Hi Kirk,
The term I use is "flooding" not swamping.
Most commonly the culprit is an unprotected solid state device connected to
an AC power wiring within about 5-10 wavelengths of an intense RF source.
The solid state device produces intense harmonic energy modulated by
broadband buzz (AC power harmonics) re-radiated by the AC power wiring.
The same effect can occur with solid state devices connected to computer
networks operating in an intense RF field.
Like any RFI, the best approach is methodical direction finding rather than
guesswork.
73
Frank
W3LPL
----- Original Message -----
From: "K4RO Kirk Pickering" <k4ro at k4ro.net>
To: cq-contest at contesting.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2019 10:05:56 PM
Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] SO2R interference help update
Hi Dan,
Thanks for the many CWT QSOs.
If you are willing to download a 53MB PowerPoint file, take a look at
the brief MP4 movies on page 17 of the slide show at the link below. It
demonstrates what I've heard W3LPL call "swamping". In my case, it's a
circuit which contains some kind of junction which makes a mess on 20
when transmitting on 40. I still have not been able to identify the root
cause. I just shut off the breaker when operating SO2R. The mp4 files
show how killing the breaker reduced the QRM from S9+ to S0. In the
videos, I am transmitting on 40 meters while receiving on 20 meters.
During a recent multi op here (WPX CW) our team discovered that a
seal-a-meal kitchen appliance was doing the same thing. It's on a
different circuit, and not related to the above swamping issue. The real
kicker was that it only caused QRM if used within the previous hour!
Something to do with the thermal sealing element, we suspect. The point
is that it can be ANYTHING. You'll probably have to start at the breaker
box. SO2R troubleshooting is a bit more complicated since you must have
a receiver and a transmitter running simultaneously to troubleshoot.
http://www.k4ro.net/k4ro/Single-Op-W4DXCC-2016/Single-Op.ppt
Good luck with your hunting.
73, --Kirk
On 7/24/2019 1:44 PM, Dan wrote:
> TNX to all who responded. I have a sense of direction and will begin
diagnosing.
>
> So far I have transmitted on 40 into a dummy load connected with a short
cable with Radio 1 (K3) and listened on 20 with the 1000MP on the tribander.
Turning the rotator seems to indicate the harmonic is coming from the shack.
Now I will be checking all cable and connectors, unplugging all wall warts
and eliminating any antenna switches in the path of the tribander. Probing
with my Tecsun SW on the harmonic has not revealed any true peaks on any
piece of gear so far but I?m just starting.
>
> If I have a revelation and/or some success I?ll repost with my results.
>
> As an aside I?m making a flow chart to show all antennas and switching for
future reference. Amazing how much ?stuff? gets added over the years!
>
> 73 Dan W8CAR
_______________________________________________
CQ-Contest mailing list
CQ-Contest at contesting.com
http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/cq-contest
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 19:03:38 -0700
From: Jim Brown <k9yc at audiosystemsgroup.com>
To: cq-contest at contesting.com
Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] SO2R interference help update
Message-ID:
<25543e21-7b35-548c-7e14-7fbc73a4be67 at audiosystemsgroup.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
On 7/24/2019 3:05 PM, K4RO Kirk Pickering wrote:
> Good luck with your hunting.
And don't assume that the culprit can only be your home!
73, Jim K9YC
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 19:39:23 -0700
From: Jim Brown <k9yc at audiosystemsgroup.com>
To: cq-contest at contesting.com
Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] SO2R interference help update
Message-ID:
<1bdbdcf5-0def-336e-0a86-b30e101dbfcf at audiosystemsgroup.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
On 7/24/2019 6:59 PM, donovanf at starpower.net wrote:
> The term I use is "flooding" not swamping.
I've used passive IM or passive IMD.
Your contribution by alerting the ham community to these solid state
devices on power systems and the junction between parts of rotators as
sources of this mechanism is monumental.
73, Jim K9YC
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 22:27:37 -0400
From: Tom Frenaye <frenaye at pcnet.com>
To: NC6K <egruff at cox.net>, CQ-Contest <CQ-Contest at contesting.com>
Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] Possible changes for CQ VHF Contest
Message-ID: <201907250242.x6P2gnsX058923 at mail.ntplx.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 06:00 PM 7/24/2019, NC6K/egruff at cox.net wrote:
> It's great that you all are 2000 miles or less from
>most of Europe, but remember that we are at least 5000 miles from the
>continent.
Eric -
You don't really need to exaggerate when talking about the differences
between east and west coast propagation and opportunities for QSOs.
I'm in southern New England - northern Connecticut. The closest mainland
Europe is Ireland - about 3000 miles away. Most of Europe is
more than 4000 miles away (beyond Italy-Austria-Poland-Finland). At 2000
miles I can work southern Greenland and a lot of Atlantic ocean.
I agree that most of Eu is 5000 miles or more from you. More important is
that your great circle path crosses much farther North than mine does
and encounters more auroral effects.
A good tool for examining distance circles is at
https://www.mapdevelopers.com/draw-circle-tool.php
Just plug in your QTH (or someone else's), choose the diameter of a circle,
then display the map. You can draw multiple circles.
73 Tom (once a west coaster)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------
e-mail: frenaye at pcnet.com YCCC --> http://www.yccc.org/
Tom Frenaye, K1KI, P O Box J, West Suffield CT 06093 c 860-597-4539 h
860-668-5444
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 06:06:31 -0400
From: Edward Sawyer <EdwardS at sbelectronics.com>
To: "CQ-Contest at contesting.com" <CQ-Contest at contesting.com>
Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] Possible changes for CQ VHF Contest
Message-ID:
<0D39B6681B67B44DAEC5D6AD99294A8E04CED808E8D8 at SBEMAIL.sbelectronics.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Actually, the propagation is the same on the West Coast as it is on the East
Coast. The issue is the lack of DX participation in Japan, China, India,
Australia, Indonesia, etc that rivals Europe. If there was even half the
participation in said region as there is in Europe, we wouldn't be having
this conversation on East vs West Coast all the time.
Ed N1UR
-----Original Message-----
From: CQ-Contest [mailto:cq-contest-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf Of
egruff at cox.net
Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2019 6:01 PM
To: CQ-Contest at contesting.com
Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] Possible changes for CQ VHF Contest
All,
I feel like I am fighting the same battle on alternate fronts here. It's
either "FT8 isn't real radio and shouldn't be allowed" or "No one needs to
run 1500 W to work DX". The common thread is that the originators of these
messages are almost exclusively hams on the East Coast (where I grew up and
operated for the first 13 years or so as a ham, so I have no inherent bias
against you guys, I promise).
You have to understand that propagation from the western half of the US is
NOTHING like it is where you live. On some bands, we haven't heard Europe in
a year or more. This includes 12, 10 and 6 Meters. On 160 M, it takes a kW+
to work Europe most nights, and FT8/JT65 are often the only modes that are
sensitive enough to pick them up. I have frequently reviewed my logs for
160, 80, 10 and 6 Meters, and more than half the contacts I've made in the
past three years (nadir of Solar Cycle 24) were with stations that were
weaker than -15 dB on digital modes. This is the commonly-accepted threshold
for being able to hear CW. So, without the weak-signal modes, I wouldn't
have made the contacts. It's great that you all are 2000 miles or less from
most of Europe, but remember that we are at least 5000 miles from the
continent. I'm not going to give up the chance to work new countries because
"it's not CW or SSB", and I suspect none of you would either.
For contests, a very similar situation exists. I am a semiserious contester
and prefer CW to all other modes. However, for multimode contests, I can't
hear, much less work many of the stations that you all work easily. While
FT8 is painfully slow compared to CW or SSB, at some point I can pick up
many more QSOs and some multipliers at the cost of a much lower rate with
FT8. Again, why shouldn't I take advantage of the opportunity instead of
turning off the radio? This weekend's CQ WW VHF contest was a great example.
In 4 hours that I had to operate, I made 15 CW and 5 or so SSB QSOs, all in
TX and FL. I was able to make 40 FT8 QSOs within the same window, many of
which were new grids in the contest. Looking at my log, fully 75% of them
were below the -15 dB threshold for CW. I bet that most of you East Coasters
were able to make more QSOs in one hour than I did in 4 and probably had
twice as many multipliers.
I'd love to impose a rule that before anyone can bitch about FT8, they
should have to run a contest from the West Coast. If you can get within 25%
of your score in the same contest from a prior year at your home QTH, I'll
take out a full-page ad in the newpaper of your choice to trumpet your
opinion. You guys just don't know how much better it is there. There is a
reason why there are fewer than two dozen 6 M DXCC awards earned by West
Coast stations since the award started. Some of us have multiple towers, big
yagis or stacks and run full QRO. You can argue how we do so much better to
Japan, and that's true, but it's ONE country. We also occasionally can work
China, Taiwan, S Korea and VK/ZL, but that's about it and they are 6000+
miles away. Certainly not the number of entities that are within 2000 miles
of you guys.
So, the next time you want to complain about why anyone would want to use
FT8, consider that we're all not as fortunate as you. It's far worse for our
fellow hams in KH6 and KL7. It's a great weak-signal mode that has a place
in radio. I'll never give up CW (phone is another story), but I have no
intention of quitting FT8 either and neither do many of my friends on this
side of the country. All we're asking is that you show a little
consideration for others that are in less favorable QTHs.
73,
Eric NC6K
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------------------------------
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