[CQ-Contest] When is a FTn Contest QSO Complete?

Sun Sep 1 13:42:46 EDT 2019

I ran into similar issues many times this weekend.  With the FT modes being
so automated, it is really important that everyone understands and uses the
same message sequences.  Different programs seemed to have different
expectations for the "next" message causing a lot of repeats and abandoned
QSOs.

The grid gets sent with the CQ.  The WW Digi rules required an exchange of
grids.  

I would like to see something like this:

> CQ TEST K5ZD FN42
< K5ZD WA7BNM CM00
> K5ZD WA7BNM R FN42  <<I have your grid, here is mine again to meet rules
and expectations
< K5ZD WA7BNM 73      <confirming completion
> CQ TEST K5ZD FN42

Alternate 1

> CQ TEST K5ZD FN42
< K5ZD WA7BNM R CM00  <<The R signals I have your grid from the CQ
> K5ZD WA7BNM RR 73   <<I got your grid and we are good
< K5ZD WA7BNM 73      <confirming completion
> CQ TEST K5ZD FN42

This at least forces some handshake between the two parties.

That final 73 is important.  Without it, I am logging a QSO where the only
time I heard the guy was when he called me.  I logged a bunch of these this
weekend only to have the guy call me again a few minutes later.

I am not FT expert.  Just someone having fun trying to figure out the game
as it was played this weekend.

Randy K5ZD

> -----Original Message-----
> From: CQ-Contest <cq-contest-bounces at contesting.com> On Behalf Of Bruce
> Horn
> Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2019 9:56 PM
> To: Ria Jairam <rjairam at gmail.com>
> Cc: cq-contest <cq-contest at contesting.com>
> Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] When is a FTn Contest QSO Complete?
> 
> Hi Ria,
> 
> Thanks for your reply. It represents the practice implemented by WSJT-X
> when the standard messages and sequence are used. However, here are
> several common examples I experienced today during the contest:
> 
> Example 1: - very common
> CQ TEST WA7BNM DM04
> WA7BNM K1ABCD EM01
> K1ABCD WA7BNM R DM04
> K1ABCD WA7BNM R DM04
> K1ABCD WA7BNM R DM04
> (and so on until I terminate the QSO because no RR73, etc was received,
> or maybe K1ABCD finally sends RR73.)
> 
> Example 2: - frequent
> CQ TEST WA7BNM DM04
> WA7BNM K2ABCD EM01
> K2ABCD WA7BNM R DM04
> WA7BNM K2ABCD EM01
> K2ABCD WA7BNM R DM04
> (and so on)
> 
> Example 3: - probably why you need a confirmation CQ TEST WA7BNM DM04
> WA7BNM K3ABCD EM03 K3ABC WA7BNM R DM04 DX1ABC K3ABC RR73 CQ TEST K3ABC
> EM03 (huh? what happened?)
> 
> In Example 1, I believe the respondent (K1ABCD) believes that all they
> need is my acknowledgement of their exchange ("R" and then my grid). This
> is equivalent to the typical contest exchange like CQWW. So they think
> the QSO is complete. The fact that WSJT-X provides the exchange (grid) in
> the CQ message starts the QSO "dance" differently than the typical CW/SSB
> contest:
> WA7BNM sends: CQ TEST WA7BNM
> K1ABCD sends: K1ABCD
> WA7BNM sends: K1ABCD 599 03
> K1ABCD sends: 599 05
> WA7BNM sends: TU CQ TEST WA7BNM
> 
> It would be beneficial if WSJT-X more closely followed the typical
> contest practice, or it needs to be widely publicized whether WA7BNM
> should have treated the QSO as complete after K1ABCD's first transmission
> in Example 1.
> 
> 73 de Bruce, WA7BNM   (bhorn at hornucopia.com)
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ria Jairam" <rjairam at gmail.com>
> To: "Edward Sawyer" <EdwardS at sbelectronics.com>
> Cc: "Bruce Horn" <bhorn at hornucopia.com>, "cq-contest" <cq-
> contest at contesting.com>
> Sent: Friday, August 30, 2019 9:45:46 PM
> Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] When is a FTn Contest QSO Complete?
> 
> The accepted norm is already there.
> 
> It's when each side gets one of an "R, RRR or RR73."
> 
> The software can be configured to pop up the logging window when this
> condition is met and is the most common mode of operation.
> 
> Contest mode even logs automatically.
> 
> Yes there are some hams who insist on a 73 but there are also hams who
> will try to ask your name or the weather during a SSB contest. Log it and
> move on.
> 
> 73
> Ria, N2RJ
> 
> On Sat, 31 Aug 2019 at 00:41, Edward Sawyer <EdwardS at sbelectronics.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > Like existing contests not using FT4/8 - over time an accepted norm
> will end up occurring.  At the end of the day, if you have it in your log
> and they have it in their log, with the right information, it's a good Q,
> right?  Many of us have logged a Q that we were 95% sure was good and 95%
> of the time - it's a verified Q on the other end.  Will the software
> actually allow such judgment calls?  Not sure.
> >
> > The way Bruce describes it, sure sounds like a lot of QRM causing
> inefficiency happening.
> >
> > 73
> >
> > Ed  N1UR
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: CQ-Contest [mailto:cq-contest-bounces at contesting.com] On Behalf
> > Of rjairam at gmail.com
> > Sent: Friday, August 30, 2019 10:07 PM
> > To: Bruce Horn
> > Cc: cq-contest
> > Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] When is a FTn Contest QSO Complete?
> >
> > QSO is over when each side acknowledges receipt.
> >
> > This can be RR73, RRR or 73.
> >
> > Not before.
> >
> > Ria
> > N2RJ
> >
> > On Fri, 30 Aug 2019 at 21:50, Bruce Horn <bhorn at hornucopia.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > OK, I'm a newbie at FTn, but managed a few QSOs the last couple of
> days. During today's practice session I noticed that some never completed
> the QSO with an acknowledgement like (R or 73) for FT4 in contest mode.
> As a result the WSJT-X sequencer kept sending the grid, looking for a
> response, and no logging was initiated. This seemed like the other
> station was trying to save a cycle. Should such QSOs be logged, or are
> they incomplete? Thanks.
> > >
> > > 73 de Bruce, WA7BNM   (bhorn at hornucopia.com)
> > > _______________________________________________
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