[CQ-Contest] World Wide Digi DX Contest Results.

[Edward Sawyer]

Jeff, I commend you for that.  However, if the FT-x signal is not audible, then that becomes a problem.  From what I gather, you are a in a very minor group listening to all the FT-X signals.  Maybe others who participated could comment on that and whether that helps give “good contact” information.

Ed  N1UR

From: Jeff Stai [mailto:wk6i.jeff at gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2020 6:45 PM
To: Edward Sawyer
Cc: Stan Zawrotny; Tim Shoppa; rjairam at gmail.com; cq-contest at contesting.com
Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] World Wide Digi DX Contest Results.

You said "screen watcher". FT screen watching has a lot in common in common with RTTY screen watching. And I listen to the FT signals, you can learn things from the tonal quality. That and attention to the visual clues like the waterfall present a lot of information to operator beyond the decoded characters. 73 jeff wk6i

On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 3:36 PM Edward Sawyer <EdwardS at sbelectronics.com<mailto:EdwardS at sbelectronics.com>> wrote:
Jeff, Sorry for confusion.  RTTY is not in question here.  FT-X is the topic.  I totally agree with you that the RTTY contester wearing headphones is in a totally informed mode to make logging decisions.

Ed  N1UR

From: Jeff Stai [mailto:wk6i.jeff at gmail.com<mailto:wk6i.jeff at gmail.com>]
Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2020 6:35 PM
To: Edward Sawyer
Cc: Stan Zawrotny; Tim Shoppa; rjairam at gmail.com<mailto:rjairam at gmail.com>; cq-contest at contesting.com<mailto:cq-contest at contesting.com>
Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] World Wide Digi DX Contest Results.

I'm sorry my friend, you have clearly never understood how RTTY contesting works. We wear headphones for a reason. 73 jeff wk6i

On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 3:21 PM Edward Sawyer <EdwardS at sbelectronics.com<mailto:EdwardS at sbelectronics.com>> wrote:
Actually Stan.  The decision that the operator makes to log or not is made based on what the computer is telling them what it thinks happened.  Having no more information than that, a decision to log is made.  The operator who is actually listening and processing the exchange of information can make an informed and experienced decision on such matters.  A screen watcher cannot.

So you are right, the operator makes the decision but unfortunately does not have the information required to do so on an accurate basis.  The data (quip intended) speaks for itself.

Ed  N1UR

From: Stan Zawrotny [mailto:k4sbz.stan at gmail.com<mailto:k4sbz.stan at gmail.com>]
Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2020 1:29 PM
To: Edward Sawyer
Cc: rjairam at gmail.com<mailto:rjairam at gmail.com>; Tim Shoppa; cq-contest at contesting.com<mailto:cq-contest at contesting.com>
Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] World Wide Digi DX Contest Results.

Ed,

>>Based on my decision only, no one elses, I hit enter and its logged.  The person on the other end does the same.  If the logged items match it’s a Q.  Both computers could have suggested and autofilled something different and it doesn’t matter, because humans actually intervened and made it right.<<

The exact same thing is true with FT8/4. Nothing is logged until the operator has made any corrections and instructs the computer to log it.

You obviously are arguing about a process that you are not personally adept with. I think this tread needs to come to an end.

Stan, K4SBZ




On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 9:48 AM Edward Sawyer <EdwardS at sbelectronics.com<mailto:EdwardS at sbelectronics.com><mailto:EdwardS at sbelectronics.com<mailto:EdwardS at sbelectronics.com>>> wrote:
Actually, I completely disagree.

When I am running stations on CW or SSB, I am listening to the station I hear and typing in what I hear.  Yes, I see on the screen the SCP suggestions as well as any autofill suggestions.  I can overwrite them at will, and often do – K5ZD is in zone 5 not Zone 4 – as an example – someone changed their power exchange since yesterday as another – the list goes on and on.

Based on my decision only, no one elses, I hit enter and its logged.  The person on the other end does the same.  If the logged items match it’s a Q.  Both computers could have suggested and autofilled something different and it doesn’t matter, because humans actually intervened and made it right.

And funny enough, the NILs are way better with the above vs the sequencing of computers trying to match all the bits before they both say – it’s a good Q.

Lets face facts.  Ft-X is designed for weak signal DX – just ask the inventor – he’ll tell you.  And its good at it too.  But what makes it good is its willingness to repeat over and over the mundane looking for just the right S/N mix to confirm the Q.  Great for low signal DXing, not so great for contesting.

Sure sounds like a square peg trying to go through a round hole to me.  But more power to those that find it enjoyable.

Ed  N1UR

From: rjairam at gmail.com<mailto:rjairam at gmail.com><mailto:rjairam at gmail.com<mailto:rjairam at gmail.com>> [mailto:rjairam at gmail.com<mailto:rjairam at gmail.com><mailto:rjairam at gmail.com<mailto:rjairam at gmail.com>>]
Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2020 10:20 PM
To: Edward Sawyer
Cc: Tim Shoppa; cq-contest at contesting.com<mailto:cq-contest at contesting.com><mailto:cq-contest at contesting.com<mailto:cq-contest at contesting.com>>
Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] World Wide Digi DX Contest Results.


In every contest the computer is running the show, because we do computerized logging, super check partial etc.

In this case we have over dependence on auto sequence, which makes things more complicated rather than easier.

Ria
N2RJ


On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 9:31 PM Edward Sawyer <EdwardS at sbelectronics.com<mailto:EdwardS at sbelectronics.com><mailto:EdwardS at sbelectronics.com<mailto:EdwardS at sbelectronics.com>><mailto:EdwardS at sbelectronics.com<mailto:EdwardS at sbelectronics.com><mailto:EdwardS at sbelectronics.com<mailto:EdwardS at sbelectronics.com>>>> wrote:
Isn't the basic problem that the computer is running the show?  On both ends.  And the operator really is helpless to change that?

It's a very basic statement about what is really happening with this mode.

73

Ed  N1UR

-----Original Message-----
From: CQ-Contest [mailto:cq-contest-bounces+edwards<mailto:cq-contest-bounces%2Bedwards><mailto:cq-contest-bounces%2Bedwards<mailto:cq-contest-bounces%252Bedwards>><mailto:cq-contest-bounces%2Bedwards<mailto:cq-contest-bounces%252Bedwards><mailto:cq-contest-bounces%252Bedwards<mailto:cq-contest-bounces%25252Bedwards>>>=sbelectronics.com at contesting.com<mailto:sbelectronics.com at contesting.com><mailto:sbelectronics.com at contesting.com<mailto:sbelectronics.com at contesting.com>><mailto:sbelectronics.com at contesting.com<mailto:sbelectronics.com at contesting.com><mailto:sbelectronics.com at contesting.com<mailto:sbelectronics.com at contesting.com>>>] On Behalf Of Tim Shoppa
Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2020 9:13 AM
To: cq-contest at contesting.com<mailto:cq-contest at contesting.com><mailto:cq-contest at contesting.com<mailto:cq-contest at contesting.com>><mailto:cq-contest at contesting.com<mailto:cq-contest at contesting.com><mailto:cq-contest at contesting.com<mailto:cq-contest at contesting.com>>>
Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] World Wide Digi DX Contest Results.

K4SBZ writes:
>  In any case, it is
> the operator who makes the decision not to log the QSO. No QSOs are
> automatically not logged. And the next action requires the operator to
> manually select another callsign to call or send CQ. There is no chaining
> of contacts.
> The problem is that the operators have become so accustomed to the prompt
> to log a QSO when 73 is sent that they think it is a requirement.

I originally had some thoughts like you. Folks unfamiliar with logging
details or imagining a requirement for a 73 might have been the source of
most of the NIL's.

Then I asked Ed to send me my LCR and I looked it over. Most of the NIL's
given by me or given to me, were with other well-known multi-mode
contesters, not with newbies. So there goes my theory that it was newbies
racking up the NIL's.

It just IS HARDER to figure out whether a QSO was complete or not on
FT4/FT8. All the clues that even a beginning contester learns quickly, as
to whether the QSO is complete, or not complete, are simply lacking in
FT4/FT8. We make our best guess based on what the computer decodes or does
not decode, maybe try an extra cycle or two to see if we can tease out the
confirmation we are looking for, decide whether to log it or not, and
compared to other modes, that guess is several times more fallible.

And it wasn't just newbies. Even for very experienced multi mode
contesters, that guess is several times more fallible in FT4/FT8 than for
other modes.

Adding extra confirmation steps on top of the existing confirmation steps?
That'd just make the NIL rate worse because those are more opportunities
for things to get lost in the noise and QRM!

There are several contests out there (NAQP comes to mind but I'm sure there
are others) where NIL's do not result in any penalty, just the loss of
credit for that Q. I think the WW Digi organizers were wise to chose this
approach in scoring.

Tim N3QE
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--
Jeff Stai ~ WK6I ~ wk6i.jeff at gmail.com<mailto:wk6i.jeff at gmail.com>
RTTY op at W7RN
Twisted Oak Winery ~ http://www.twistedoak.com/


--
Jeff Stai ~ WK6I ~ wk6i.jeff at gmail.com<mailto:wk6i.jeff at gmail.com>
RTTY op at W7RN
Twisted Oak Winery ~ http://www.twistedoak.com/