[CQ-Contest] Contesting and the FT8 Revolution
N4ZR
n4zr at comcast.net
Mon Jun 21 12:55:38 EDT 2021
So far, at least, FT8 is restricted to a relatively small slice of the
bands. As long as that remains true, I'm with Jeff.
73, Pete N4ZR
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On 6/21/2021 11:53 AM, Jeff Clarke wrote:
> I guess I don't understand why this FT8 subject is dominating the
> contest reflector again? It's pretty simple... if you don't like FT8
> then don't operate that mode. You can still work lots of DX on the
> traditional CW and SSB modes. My guess is any group that goes to a
> rare DXCC entry will concentrate more on CW and SSB anyway. FT8 won't
> be a high priority and will only be used when propagation isn't good
> (or dead) on a specific band. As far as I know there are only maybe a
> couple dedicated FT8 contests and it's allowed in RTTY contests as
> well? Isn't there a RTTY contesting list? Maybe this subject should
> be discussed there? Just saying...
>
> Jeff
>
>
> On 6/20/2021 06:53 PM, Salvatore ["Ted"] K2QMF wrote:
>> FT8 also takes the FUN out of Ham Radio and out of DXing and out of
>> Contesting!!
>> Ted K2QMF
>>
>>
>> On 6/20/2021 5:53:05 PM, wa1fcn <wa1fcn at charter.net> wrote:
>>
>> GA Ken
>>
>> I have read your post a couple of times. My thoughts......
>> You are partly
>>
>> correct. DXSummit and RBN have certainly changed how we DX.
>> There are
>>
>> a couple differences between that and what FT8 did to DXing!
>> Did the
>>
>> RBN/DXSummit stop or curtail any CW/SSB operations? Do You
>> have friends
>>
>> club members ect. who feel/talk bad about RBN ect, probably
>> not.
>>
>> Let me be clear I am not totally against FT8 only the way
>> ARRL has integrated
>>
>> it with the DXCC program, and it's effect on RTTY and the
>> thought once a
>>
>> new ham gets into FT8 seriously, you can forget about
>> him/her putting any real effort
>>
>> into learning CW or being a proficient SSB operator. For
>> full disclosure every few months
>>
>> I do get on FT8 for a couple weeks.
>>
>> Back to DXCC with FT8......... What can be done with 50
>> watts FT8 can not even
>>
>> be done with a KW on SSB or CW now. Do you consider
>> those QSL's/QSO's
>>
>> equal to SSB/CW efforts ? I do not.
>>
>> 73 OM BoB WA1FCN
>>
>>
>>
>> On 6/20/2021 11:46 AM, ktfrog007 at aol.com wrote:
>>> Hi Bob,
>>>
>>> You wrote: The ARRL has destroyed the value of DXCC.
>>>
>>> ===========================================
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The ARRL hasn't done anything. Technological change has.
>>>
>>> The DX clusters and RBN destroyed the value of DXCC. That happened
>>> quite a while back. Long before FT8 came along.
>>>
>>>
>>> DXers used to be admired for their skills, knowledge and
>>> perseverance. They used to operate by their wits. No longer. That's
>>> what ruined DXCC.
>>>
>>>
>>> Name me a DXer you admire who has started from scratch 15 years ago
>>> and has over 300 Current confirmed and hasn't used the clusters or
>>> RBN..
>>>
>>>
>>> 73,
>>>
>>> Ken, AB1J
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: wa1fcn
>>> To: cq-contest at contesting.com
>>> Sent: Sun, Jun 20, 2021 12:46 am
>>> Subject: Re: [CQ-Contest] Contesting and the FT8 Revolution
>>>
>>>
>>> GE Kostas
>>>
>>> I just wanted you to know you are not the only one to feel bad
>>> about DXCC.
>>>
>>> In the past couple years a few people have E-Mailed me
>>> about their feelings
>>>
>>> in regards to DXCC. The ARRL has destroyed the value of
>>> DXCC. It has taken
>>>
>>> me a lifetime (over 50years) to achieve DXCC of 285 on 40
>>> meters low power.
>>>
>>> They should of separated FT8/FT4 from all other modes in
>>> Single band DXCC.
>>>
>>> DX with FT8 is fishing in a barrel. Can you imagine the
>>> DXCC totals on 12 and 10
>>>
>>> meters when the Sunspot cycle improves! Where is the
>>> challenge now?! There
>>>
>>> is none! I can go on to other FT8 minuses like how it
>>> destroyed RTTY, how it has
>>>
>>> made some hams lazy and see no need to put any effort into
>>> becoming a more
>>>
>>> proficient operator in other modes.
>>>
>>> Ok Kostas I will stop now as I am sure I offended
>>> enough hams already.
>>>
>>> 73 BoB WA1FCN
>>>
>>>
>>> On 6/19/2021 2:46 PM, Kostas SV1DPI wrote:
>>>> Maybe you have right. But I don't feel the same.
>>>>
>>>> ** The small pistol station revolution
>>>>
>>>> Having 1 kw and a 2el quad @10m high, I don't feel a big gun. I had
>>>> the chance to be competitive in dxing because I devoted many hours
>>>> studying propagation and even more time on the radio. Now there is no
>>>> chance for me to make something that others do not. They let their
>>>> computer and play 24 hours per day with better antennas and more
>>>> power.... So yes small pistols have the chance to work something they
>>>> had not but not to be competitive...
>>>>
>>>> ** The station optimization revolution
>>>>
>>>> I have at least one friend who has a long wire and have worked 290
>>>> countries the last 3 years, of course in ft8, including pacific, etc.
>>>> So why to make his station better? I remember that I put my quad
>>>> higher when I lost a dxpedition, I bought an amplifier the next time,
>>>> etc... Now there is no chance to loose a dxpedition especially because
>>>> almost every dxpedition (let me know it - don't forget that the first
>>>> ft8 robot was Greek and I know some of the guys bought it) uses more
>>>> than one robots running ft8 all day. And they have not the courage to
>>>> say it...
>>>>
>>>> ** The now-casting propagation revolution
>>>> In SZ1A we have a skimmer (maybe you know it even it is out of order
>>>> the last 3 weeks - we have ordered the damaged parts). We use the
>>>> results of the skimmer to make our plans in contests. The first time
>>>> we were keeping ft8 qsos as the CW qsos also. This had as a result to
>>>> drive us to mistakes in real contesting. While the band seemed to be
>>>> open the previous days during specific time, it wasn't finally during
>>>> the contest. So we stopped using the FT8 spots and now we keep only
>>>> the CW qsos to make our plans.
>>>>
>>>> ** The marginal bands revolution
>>>>
>>>> Yes, ft8 helps a weaker station to have a QSO (I don't think "to be
>>>> heard" is the right expression). I am not a 6m fun but I managed to
>>>> work 125 entities the last 15 years. Also optimization of antennas,
>>>> radios, amplifiers, etc, all these years. Someone using ft8, has
>>>> worked these entities the last 2 years in the lower point of solar
>>>> cycle using the half length of my boom. But what he will do the next
>>>> years... What he will work in high part of solar cycle? And why he
>>>> needs to wait for it? Probably he will play cards because I don't
>>>> think he will stay in ham radio... If you don't need to improve the
>>>> station, the antennas, to study and learn propagation, to learn more,
>>>> to increase your knowledge, etc... what will be the interesting part
>>>> to keep you in ham radio? I already know someone who stopped to play
>>>> radio, never installed his new hexbeam, because he worked WAS on 40m
>>>> in a week with a long wire (WAS is far more difficult from DXCC from
>>>> Greece), letting his computer to play ever night. Plus another one who
>>>> had dxcc with all entities in ft8 but he didn't know the QSO
>>>> procedure!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In conclusion, I don't care what the others do. I mentioned about
>>>> others just to show the results. I have not fun with ft8 and this is
>>>> why I don't use it. If you are pleasant with it, do it. I don't care.
>>>> I lost my interest for DXing.
>>>> I can not understand how someone has fun with ft8 in contesting.
>>>> Because the rhythm? Because the nice sound? Because of the pileup? Or
>>>> because he has the time to go to the toilet while his computer makes
>>>> some QSOs...
>>>>
>>>> By the way I am a digital guy! I gave many new ones to west coast guys
>>>> on RTTY from Iran (EP6T) and I have 329 entities on RTTY. I have tried
>>>> ft8 and I didn't like it. I abandoned dxcc program while I was HR1, HR
>>>> on SSB and CW and had over 2850 entities in challenge because of Ft8
>>>> acceptance by ARRL. I am crying over the money I gave to ARRL. After
>>>> 25 years in ham radio I continue to play chasing fun in CW/SSB/RTTY
>>>> contesting (mainly casual but more serious also sometimes) and I don't
>>>> think ft8 could be part of my contesting habits.
>>>>
>>>> 73 Kostas SV1DPI
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Στις 19/6/2021 18:24, ο/η José Nunes CT1BOH έγραψε:
>>>>> There is a revolution going on – The FT8 revolution! Like other
>>>>> revolutions, it is a breakthrough and there is no coming back. But
>>>>> unlike
>>>>> what many think, FT8 mode is fantastic for amateur radio and of
>>>>> course for
>>>>> contesting.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> There are several things I can particularly note:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ** The spotting revolution
>>>>>
>>>>> Because of the default reporting option of FT8 applications, every
>>>>> station
>>>>> that uses JTDX/WSJT applications is constantly spotting all the
>>> stations
>>>>> that the decoders hear. Every station becomes a spotting machine
>>>>> of the
>>>>> bands (just like a skimmer) while they are on. The result?! 20.8
>>> billion
>>>>> FT8 spots in 4 years.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ** The small pistol station revolution
>>>>>
>>>>> Considering a 2500 Hz bandwidth and weak-signal/Noise Ratio, SSB can
>>>>> go as
>>>>> low as +10 dB, CW -15 db and FT8 -21dB. To put it in another way,
>>>>> since
>>>>> doubling power results in 3 dB increase in SNR, a 31db difference
>>>>> means 1W
>>>>> in FT8 versus 1024 watts in SSB.
>>>>>
>>>>> A modest station, suddenly, feels like a new world of propagation has
>>>>> opened to him and this in return brings more and more people to the
>>>>> bands
>>>>> because of the fun of working stations and paths not before
>>>>> available.
>>>>> There is a virtuous cycle – more spots, more people, more activity,
>>> more
>>>>> spots, more people, more activity, …
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ** The now-casting propagation revolution
>>>>>
>>>>> With such a huge volume of spots, 20.8 billion in 4 years and
>>>>> around 22
>>>>> million spots per day [just for your reference last CQWW CW generated
>>>>> 6.5M
>>>>> spots], propagation prediction is turning into now-casting
>>>>> propagation.
>>>>> There is no need for propagation prediction anymore because,
>>> knowing the
>>>>> propagation pattern from 20 billion spots and getting real
>>>>> propagation from
>>>>> the 22 million spots per day, real time conditions come from
>>> now-casting
>>>>> propagation - any circuit can be determined to be open or close.
>>>>>
>>>>> You can watch my 2021 Contest University presentation about this
>>> subject
>>>>> here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-esob7BPtc&t=20340s
>>> and/or get the
>>>>> slides of the presentation slides here
>>>>>
>>> https://www.contestuniversity.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/There-is-Nothing-Magic-About-Propagation-CTU-2021-CT1BOH.pdf
>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ** The station optimization revolution
>>>>>
>>>>> This is perhaps one of the most overlooked aspects of FT8 and of
>>>>> great
>>>>> interest to contest stations. Because of the spotting revolution and
>>>>> because every FT8 station uses exact grid locator, the exact path
>>> of the
>>>>> circuits can be drawn. A contest station that uses a simple FT8
>>>>> skimmer can
>>>>> monitor, 24x7, the potential of any antenna set-up, compare different
>>>>> antennas configuration (A/B testing using different calls), test
>>> antenna
>>>>> take-off angles, and adjust this information to available
>>> propagation at
>>>>> any time, before or during a contest. “22 million spots per day” are
>>>>> there
>>>>> available to test your station. I believe every station, DX or
>>>>> Contest, should
>>>>> use a FT8 Skimmer, like the stand alone Red Pitaya
>>>>> https://www.redpitaya.com/ to skim
>>> several bands at the same time at
>>>>> a very
>>>>> low cost, provide now-casting information, check antenna and location
>>>>> potential and use that for station optimization. This link takes you
>>>>> to a
>>>>> visualization of my modest small pistol station (just a simple long
>>>>> wire)
>>>>> potential on all the bands https://tinyurl.com/e6767we8
>>> in the last 24
>>>>> hours.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ** The marginal bands revolution
>>>>>
>>>>> With FT8, marginal bands like 160, 10 and 6 meters become alive
>>>>> like no
>>>>> other. Going deeper into the SNR, “opens” new circuits, brings more
>>>>> activity, confirms these circuits were always there. We are working
>>>>> Japan
>>>>> on 6 meters on a daily basis... Also, there is a move from CW into
>>>>> FT8 on
>>>>> these band. This is a side effect, but it is what it is. If people
>>>>> suddenly
>>>>> find a band open at -21dB that before was close at -15dB, of course
>>> they
>>>>> will use the mode that enables those QSOs and will not use the other
>>>>> mode
>>>>> anymore.
>>>>>
>>>>> In any case competitive contesting (SSB and CW) has a lot to gain
>>>>> form this
>>>>> revolution. Exciting times indeed
>>>>>
>>>>> 73 José Nunes
>>>>> CONTEST CT1BOH - http://www.qsl.net/ct1boh
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> CQ-Contest mailing list
>>>>> CQ-Contest at contesting.com
>>>>> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/cq-contest
>>>
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