[RFI] Another Solar Panel RFI System

Sun Dec 25 21:23:33 EST 2022

Ed,
Well, the step by step diagnostic approach is a helpful guide for those trying to identify and resolve issues.  In this modern world, it is not a single source issue, but one of peeling back and addressing layers until the specific types of interference or the sources of the vulnerabilities are sufficiently addressed.
The often challenging, but single-end objective of removing TVI example is "easy" when compared to modern RF ecosystems in a home.  Guidance in finding, clearing and mitigating multiple elements is going to be complex for the newbie (and anyone else) attacking the problem.

The other day I was running 600W on a dipole close to the ham shack on 40m and 80m and a newish Evolve III laptop had its touchpad lock up or randomly "left click" when I was transmitting.  My desktop machines and other laptops, an HP and  Dell have no issues.  This is a "new" problem that will probably get addressed when I move the dipoles in a week or so as planned.  The important issue is to make sure that I can use the Evolve III laptop with a 100W radio on 40m or 80m with a dipole for EMCOMM, WFD, FD and POTA!  We're always learning!

73,
J. Gordon "Gordie" Beattie, Jr., W2TTT
201.314.6964
W2TTT at ATT.NET
Gordon.BeattieJr at VIAVISolutions.com

Get On The Air!

________________________________
From: Hare, Ed, W1RFI <w1rfi at arrl.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 25, 2022 3:58:47 PM
To: w2ttt at arrl.net <w2ttt at att.net>; nk7z at arrl.net <dave at nk7z.net>; rfi at contesting.com <rfi at contesting.com>
Subject: Re: [RFI] Another Solar Panel RFI System

I can see the reason for the suggestion, Gordon, but although the book will see an initial surge in sales, we literally give away virtually all of the information on the RFI page on the ARRL.org site, because solving RFI is so very much "for the good of the service" that none of it is held behind the members-only wall.  Once that initial surge is over, sales will taper back to the low level they were previously and I am going to speculate that breaking it into volumes would probably not be done.  And, of course, if we did, the cost of two books would be more than the cost of one, so there would be all sorts of discussion that ARRL did it to fill the coffers. 🙂

No,  like the "consumer pamphlet," I think that if we need material to hand a neighbor, we may want to really bite the bullet and just put it up on the page as a PDF.  I have a few other ideas that I don't want to put out there yet until I can talk them over with management, but we may have ways to get the best of both worlds wrt consumer information.
________________________________
From: James Gordon Beattie Jr <w2ttt at att.net>
Sent: Sunday, December 25, 2022 3:23 PM
To: Hare, Ed, W1RFI <w1rfi at arrl.org>; nk7z at arrl.net <dave at nk7z.net>; rfi at contesting.com <rfi at contesting.com>
Subject: Re: [RFI] Another Solar Panel RFI System

Ed,
Perhaps it would be good to have a two or more volume set on RFI.  It could be organized either as a volume for RFI from Amateur Radio and another volume for RFI to Amateur Radio, or it could be grouped by device types and their RFI relationship with Amateur Radio.  Even if one volume, both organizational models are worth discussing.
Thoughts?

73,
J. Gordon "Gordie" Beattie, Jr., W2TTT
201.314.6964
W2TTT at ATT.NET
Gordon.BeattieJr at VIAVISolutions.com

Get On The Air!

________________________________
From: RFI <rfi-bounces+w2ttt=att.net at contesting.com> on behalf of Hare, Ed, W1RFI <w1rfi at arrl.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 25, 2022 2:44:22 PM
To: nk7z at arrl.net <dave at nk7z.net>; rfi at contesting.com <rfi at contesting.com>
Subject: Re: [RFI] Another Solar Panel RFI System

Actually, things have changed  some with FCC since that decision was made, so I am going to call in a few markers and see what realistically can be done.

Right now, the ARRL RFI Book is out of print, but Steve Anderson and I had talked recently about putting together a plan to redo it, from scratch for a few chapters.  He will email you about some parts of that I think you can help with, as soon as we talk to the editors about page rates for authorship, etc.

I could well see putting together a booklet that contains the consumer pamphlet, the FCC material condensed as needed and some basic tips on resolving interference.

Much of that older material, however, focused on interference FROM amateur radio. Looking at this list alone, we can see that this has become less and less of an issue.  Most TV is watched on cable or streamed. Most telephone is wireless and the industry is improving immunity on a regular basis.  The immunity standard that C63 wrote for the immunity of micromedia equipment contains test levels we could not have imagined years ago, up to 300V/m immunity.  The smart grid immunity is spec'ed at 30 V/m or so, and we are seeing that many devices do not exhibit RFI problems from nearby transmitters.

But the real problem is noise, and that is just as much of a "diplomacy" problem as interference to neighbor's equipment. (The response can be, "So, the tables have turned, have they?"  Neighbors do not understand the issues involved with RFI, and seeing the misinformation common here, hams struggle with some parts of it, too.  So, hams need to start by telling a neighbor that this device he just bought at Walmart is being operated in violation of some federal law he doesn't even understand.   We need brochures for that, too, and now that we have our EMC staff pretty well trained in handling cases, we are branching out into these side roads that are equally important.

Ed, W1RFI

________________________________
From: Dave (NK7Z) <dave at nk7z.net>
Sent: Sunday, December 25, 2022 1:52 PM
To: Hare, Ed, W1RFI <w1rfi at arrl.org>; rfi at contesting.com <rfi at contesting.com>
Subject: Re: [RFI] Another Solar Panel RFI System

Ed,

I applaud the ARRL's efforts along this line, and in general with
regards to RFI!  THANK YOU for YOUR efforts, as well...

Maybe the ARRL could publish an actual book that the Amateur could hand
out to offenders, or victims of RFI!

Perhaps the FCC could add something back on the web page they run, and
the ARRL book could point at it...

Even better, maybe the ARRL could convince the FCC to make the book ARRL
available on the FCC web page as a PDF...  I know the last request is
not going to happen but it felt good to say it...  :)

73, and thanks,
Dave (NK7Z)
https://www.nk7z.net
ARRL Volunteer Examiner
ARRL Technical Specialist, RFI
ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources

On 12/25/22 09:36, Hare, Ed, W1RFI wrote:
> About 25 years ago, ARRL was contacted by an engineer who worked with
> the FCC. He had been assigned to rewrite the FCC's RFI material. We
> worked together over a number of months and came up with a book on
> consumer interference that truly spoke to the issues. It lived on the
> FCC web page for quite a while.
>
> Unfortunately, the FCC, in its wisdom, decided that the RFI material
> needed to be simplified.  It removed much of what we had included
> earlier.  Fortunately, ARRL kept a copy and because it was authored by
> the US government, it is public domain and may be circulated and used
> freely.  So we kept that technically accurate material on the ARRL web
> page.  The information on interference to consumer equipment is quite to
> the point and will go a long way towards helping a neighbor to
> understand.  My personal favorite from the book is the following:
>
> "Stereos, electronic organs, and intercom devices, among others, can
> react to nearby radio transmitters. When this happens, the device
> improperly functions as a radio receiver."
>
> The text in its entirely is available at:
>
> http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Technology/FCC%20RFI%20Information/tvibook.pdf <http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Technology/FCC%20RFI%20Information/tvibook.pdf>
>
> ARRL also worked with the Consumer Electronics Association and prepared
> a joint publication to help consumers understand interference causes and
> cures.
>
> This is no longer printed as a pamphlet, but the text is still mostly
> current. (I can see some of the sources at the end need to be updated.)
>
> The pamphlet text is available at:
>
> https://www.arrl.org/files/file/Technology/Neighbor_Info/Neighbor_Info.pdf <https://www.arrl.org/files/file/Technology/Neighbor_Info/Neighbor_Info.pdf>
>
> In the event a neighbor complains to the FCC, if they cite amateur
> radio, the case will end up going to Laura Smith.  She is well educated
> on the types of interference that can and cannot be caused by rules
> violations at an amateur station, so there is little risk that the
> complaint alone will cause the amateur any problems. It is most likely
> that she will send the case to ARRL, who will work with the amateur and
> his/her neighbor under our cooperative agreements with FCC staff.
>
> Ed Hare, W1RFI
> ARRL Lab
>
>
> What To Do if You Have an Electronic Interference Problem - American
> Radio Relay League
> <https://www.arrl.org/files/file/Technology/Neighbor_Info/Neighbor_Info.pdf>
> Page 5 of 7 Try the Easy Things First Sometimes, the easiest solutions
> are the best. Many cases of interference can be resolved without the
> need for technical investigations or knowledge.
> www.arrl.org<http://www.arrl.org>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* RFI <rfi-bounces+w1rfi=arrl.org at contesting.com> on behalf of
> Dave (NK7Z) <dave at nk7z.net>
> *Sent:* Sunday, December 25, 2022 10:13 AM
> *To:* rfi at contesting.com <rfi at contesting.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [RFI] Another Solar Panel RFI System
> Hi Dale,
>
> For the most part that is not going to work well...  No matter how much
> you talk to your next door neighbor if you interfere with their <insert
> device name here>, it is almost always your fault in their minds...
> The logic goes like this:
>
> "I have a <insert device name here>, it works 99% of the time, but when
> you transmit it does not work..."
>
> How do you think most people are going to react to that situation...  So
> as Amateurs, we start out handicapped, because the consumer is not
> educated in how RFI responsibility is parsed out.  The consumer is sure
> it is you, not them...
>
> Now lets reverse the victim status...
>
> The consumer installs a multi thousand dollar <insert device name here>:
>
> "I paid thousands to to install this, and had professionals install
> it...  I bought it from a manufacturer we all know and love.  It can't
> be my equipment..."
>
> Again-- education of the consumer is the driver here.  If the consumer
> is happy, and the system is in place, the Amateur is already behind the
> 8-Ball, and again, the Amateur is handicapped as a result of lack of
> education on the consumers part, with regards to parsing RFI responsibility.
>
> This places an installer, or manufacturer, in the position of telling
> the consumer that their newly installed multi thousand dollar widget,
> may interfere with the amateur next door, and they, (the consumer), will
> have to pay more to fix the issue...
>
> Again, the consumer is going to whine about this state of affairs, and
> neither the  the manufacture, or the vendor, are going to tell the
> consumer this, as they may lose the sale...  Again, education issues for
> the consumer, and maybe penalty's for the vendor if they don't tell the
> consumer might help...
>
> Until the consumer, not the Amateur, is directly affected by RFI, the
> RFI nightmare we all live in, (if we are a city), will continue.
>
> Part of the RFI "fix" MUST include education beyond the Part 15, or 18,
> stickers on equipment to consumers...  The consumer views these stickers
> like the tags on mattresses that say "DO NOT REMOVE UNDER PENALTY OF
> LAW", they are ignored, and removed, for the most part.
>
> I really don't see how this will get solved in my lifetime...  At 70, I
> have perhaps 15 to 20, (if I am lucky), years left...
>
> It will take that long just to cycle out most of the old gear, if a
> mandate were to be put in place today.
>
> I applaud the efforts of the ARRL, the only way to work this issue is to
> educate everyone involved, and get standards in place...
>
> Maybe the next generation of hams will see less RFI...
>
> With regards to contracts...  You are dead correct Dale!
>
> I was lucky, I got my HVAC installer to put in his contract that if RFI
> were to occur at a level I was not happy with, they would fix the issue,
> or remove and replace the HVAC system.  I doubt I could get that
> concession again today...  No RFI, occurred however, as we discussed
> this with the vendor prior to install, (no PWM motors were used), and
> the vendor contacted the manufacturer BEFORE starting on the project.
>
> What next door neighbor is going to tell a vendor, you had better be
> ready to charge me more, if the ham next door complains...
>
> Consumers MUST be educated about RFI responsibilities, as part of an
> overall fix, if RFI is to be reduced...
>
> 73, and thanks,
> Dave (NK7Z)
> https://www.nk7z.net <https://www.nk7z.net>
> ARRL Volunteer Examiner
> ARRL Technical Specialist, RFI
> ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources
>
> On 12/25/22 01:04, Dale wrote:
>> so it would seem that we hams try to work with our neighbors to minimize the problems from their systems
> _______________________________________________
> RFI mailing list
> RFI at contesting.com
> http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/rfi
> <http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/rfi>
_______________________________________________
RFI mailing list
RFI at contesting.com
http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/rfi