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<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle42><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Hi George,<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle42><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle42><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Maybe that’s
why this is done so seldom – the 32.5% saving in copper has not been worth the
extra trouble.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>With copper prices where
they are now – maybe it would pay off – particularly if you wanted to do what
we did at K4JA.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>The 9 circle 80M vertical
array there had 100 100ft radials under each of the 9 antennas.<span
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>That’s 90,000 feet (about 18 miles) of
wire.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>It took all summer to put it
down, but it sure did work good!<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle42><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle42><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Terman,
Kraus, LaPorte and others are on the bookshelf here as well.<span
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>I have a few radio rooks from the 20s and
30s that have remarkably good and accurate descriptions of how things work – as
valid today as ever.<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle42><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle42><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Best 73,<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle42><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Hal<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle42><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>N4GG<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle42><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span class=EmailStyle42><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'>-----Original
Message-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> w4buw@aol.com
[mailto:w4buw@aol.com]<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Friday, August 24, 2007
11:25 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> halken@comcast.net<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [SECC] Reference for
radial discussion</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:
12.0pt;margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Hi, Hal... just ran some quick number
crunching based on your description of the circular tie-ring radial grid, and
come up with the following:<br>
<br>
Center to first ring: 16x33= 528<br>
First ring to second: 32x33=1056<br>
Second ring to 100ft: 64x34=<u>2176<br>
</u>Total radial
lengths: <strong><b>3760</b></strong><b><span
style='font-weight:bold'><br>
</span></b><br>
Tie ring 1: =piD1=3.14x 66=207.24<br>
Tie ring 2: =piD2=3.14x132=<u>414.48</u><br>
Total Tie ring length: <strong><b>621.72</b></strong><br>
<br>
Total wire length: 3760+621.72=<strong><b>4381.72 ft</b></strong><br>
<br>
For 64-100ft radials: 64x100=<strong><b>6400 ft</b></strong><b><span
style='font-weight:bold'><br>
</span></b><br>
<br>
4381.72/6400=.6846..., or roughly <strong><b>68.5%</b></strong><br>
<br>
I suspect the roughly 55% comes from just the radial length, which comes out <strong><b>58.75%</b></strong>,
if you do not count the need for the tie rings...<br>
<br>
I'm an old retired EE who got this call when still 12 yrs young, and will be 69
next birthday. Many changes in the hobby, but still enjoy the number
crunching, HI!<br>
<br>
As you know, the key is to improve the ground system efficiency in order to
reduce that portion of the antenna system losses. Part of the
consideration is the dimensions between ground system conductors as compared to
the wavelength at the operating frequency. Yes, I also enjoy Terman,
Jasik, and LaPorte, as well as Kraus.<br>
<br>
73 de George, W4BUW (SECC, SC)<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Hal Kennedy <halken@comcast.net><br>
To: secc@contesting.com<br>
Sent: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 4:48 pm<br>
Subject: [SECC] Reference for radial discussion</span></font><font color=black><span
style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>
<div id="AOLMsgPart_3_6d0b8287-d1b2-47fb-8daf-38b2ef6046d3">The concentric
radial approach I mentioned I thought was discussed within the 564 page book:
Radio Antenna Engineering, by LaPorte. This is a classic and good
addition to anyone’s antenna library – particularly considering the price –
free.</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:
windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Go to <a
href="http://www.lulu.com/" target="_blank">www.lulu.com</a> and type
“Antenna Engineering” into the search box. It’s the first book returned
in the search. You can download all 33Meg for free.</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Meanwhile,
I can’t find the particular radial approach I was thinking of in the book,
although many different radial schemes are discussed.</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Concentric
system:</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:
windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>The
problem with radials that simple radiate out from a central point is that they
do not cover each square meter of ground equally well. They are spaced
far apart at the ends and tightly bunched at the center. To get a “really
good” radial system it is sometimes recommended that 120 radials be used or the
ends be no more than 0.02 wavelength apart – broadcasters frequently use
120. For the first few feet from the tower its nothing but solid copper
and most of this is wasted. The alternative is as follows:</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Suppose
you want a 64 radial system of 100 foot radials. Place a concentric
circular loop wire 33 feet out from the center and another 66 feet out from the
tower. Connect 16 radials from the center to the fist ring wire, 32
radial wires from the first ring wire to the second, and 64 wires outward from
the outer ring wire to 100 feet. In all cases the wires should be equally
spaced around in azimuth angle. This system will use around 55% as much
copper as 64 full sized radials (I forget the exact ratio) and yield the same
performance. Soldering all the wires to the ring loops however, is a lot
of extra work. If its going to be in or on the ground for a long time
then regular solder should not be used either – it should be silver solder.</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'> </span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>73</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>Hal</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>N4GG</span></font><font
color=black><span style='color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=black
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black'>
</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<pre style='margin-left:.5in;background:white'><tt><font size=2 color=black
face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'><!-- end of AOLMsgPart_3_6d0b8287-d1b2-47fb-8daf-38b2ef6046d3 -->
<div id="AOLMsgPart_4_6d0b8287-d1b2-47fb-8daf-38b2ef6046d3">_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></font></tt></pre><pre
style='margin-left:.5in;background:white'><tt><font size=2 color=black
face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>SECC mailing list<o:p></o:p></span></font></tt></pre><pre
style='margin-left:.5in;background:white'><tt><font size=2 color=black
face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'><a
href="mailto:SECC@contesting.com">SECC@contesting.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></tt></pre><pre
style='margin-left:.5in;background:white'><tt><font size=2 color=black
face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'><a
href="http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/secc" target="_blank">http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/secc</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></tt></pre></div>
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0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=3 color=black
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Email and AIM
finally together. You've gotta check out free <a
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