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<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I once saw part of the installing process for
a commercial radio transmitting tower. The counterpoise grid was at
least an acre...a lot of steel wires/rods welded at their
intersections...it was very extensive.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The best vertical antenna installation I was ever a
part of was the MARS station aboard USS Forrestal. We clamped half a
TA-33 driven element on the catwalk railing, port side aft, pointing straight
down because we could not have anything above the level of the flight deck. Our
counterpoise/radial system was about 85,000 tons of steel floating in a lot of
brine. Needless to say, it was directional...we could not work much off
the starboard bow but had little trouble with the other 270 degrees. And
"CQ MM REGION 1, 2, or 3" seldom went unanswered.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Ah, the Good Ole Days
! 73 / CF</FONT> </DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=halken@comcast.net href="mailto:halken@comcast.net">Hal Kennedy</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=secc@contesting.com
href="mailto:secc@contesting.com">secc@contesting.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, August 24, 2007 6:35
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [SECC] Reference for radial
discussion</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=EmailStyle42><FONT face=Arial color=navy
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt">Hi
George,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=EmailStyle42><FONT face=Arial color=navy
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt"><![if !supportEmptyParas]><![endif]> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=EmailStyle42><FONT face=Arial color=navy
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt">Maybe
that’s why this is done so seldom – the 32.5% saving in copper has not been
worth the extra trouble.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>With
copper prices where they are now – maybe it would pay off – particularly if
you wanted to do what we did at K4JA.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>The 9 circle 80M vertical array there had 100 100ft radials under each
of the 9 antennas.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>That’s 90,000
feet (about 18 miles) of wire.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>It
took all summer to put it down, but it sure did work
good!<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=EmailStyle42><FONT face=Arial color=navy
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt"><![if !supportEmptyParas]><![endif]> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=EmailStyle42><FONT face=Arial color=navy
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt">Terman,
Kraus, LaPorte and others are on the bookshelf here as well.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I have a few radio rooks from the 20s
and 30s that have remarkably good and accurate descriptions of how things work
– as valid today as ever.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=EmailStyle42><FONT face=Arial color=navy
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt"><![if !supportEmptyParas]><![endif]> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=EmailStyle42><FONT face=Arial color=navy
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt">Best
73,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=EmailStyle42><FONT face=Arial color=navy
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt">Hal<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=EmailStyle42><FONT face=Arial color=navy
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt">N4GG<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=EmailStyle42><FONT face=Arial color=navy
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt"><![if !supportEmptyParas]><![endif]> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=EmailStyle42><FONT face=Arial color=navy
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt"><![if !supportEmptyParas]><![endif]> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Tahoma color=black
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">-----Original
Message-----<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B>
w4buw@aol.com [mailto:w4buw@aol.com]<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Friday, August 24, 2007 11:25
PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B>
halken@comcast.net<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B>
Re: [SECC] Reference for radial discussion</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><![if !supportEmptyParas]><![endif]> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; mso-margin-top-alt: 0in"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black">Hi, Hal... just ran some quick number
crunching based on your description of the circular tie-ring radial grid, and
come up with the following:<BR><BR>Center to first
ring: 16x33= 528<BR>First ring to second:
32x33=1056<BR>Second ring to 100ft: 64x34=<U>2176<BR></U>Total radial
lengths:
<STRONG><B>3760</B></STRONG><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold"><BR></SPAN></B><BR>Tie ring 1: =piD1=3.14x
66=207.24<BR>Tie ring 2: =piD2=3.14x132=<U>414.48</U><BR>Total Tie ring
length:
<STRONG><B>621.72</B></STRONG><BR><BR>Total wire length:
3760+621.72=<STRONG><B>4381.72 ft</B></STRONG><BR><BR>For 64-100ft
radials: 64x100=<STRONG><B>6400 ft</B></STRONG><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold"><BR></SPAN></B><BR><BR>4381.72/6400=.6846..., or
roughly <STRONG><B>68.5%</B></STRONG><BR><BR>I suspect the roughly 55% comes
from just the radial length, which comes out <STRONG><B>58.75%</B></STRONG>,
if you do not count the need for the tie rings...<BR><BR>I'm an old retired EE
who got this call when still 12 yrs young, and will be 69 next birthday.
Many changes in the hobby, but still enjoy the number crunching, HI!<BR><BR>As
you know, the key is to improve the ground system efficiency in order to
reduce that portion of the antenna system losses. Part of the
consideration is the dimensions between ground system conductors as compared
to the wavelength at the operating frequency. Yes, I also enjoy Terman,
Jasik, and LaPorte, as well as Kraus.<BR><BR>73 de George, W4BUW (SECC,
SC)<BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: Hal Kennedy
<halken@comcast.net><BR>To: secc@contesting.com<BR>Sent: Fri, 24 Aug
2007 4:48 pm<BR>Subject: [SECC] Reference for radial
discussion</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial color=black
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">
<DIV id=AOLMsgPart_3_6d0b8287-d1b2-47fb-8daf-38b2ef6046d3>The concentric
radial approach I mentioned I thought was discussed within the 564 page book:
Radio Antenna Engineering, by LaPorte. This is a classic and good
addition to anyone’s antenna library – particularly considering the price –
free.</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT>
<P></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial color=black
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> </SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial color=black
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Go to
<A href="http://www.lulu.com/" target=_blank>www.lulu.com</A> and type
“Antenna Engineering” into the search box. It’s the first book returned
in the search. You can download all 33Meg for free.</SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial color=black
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> </SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial color=black
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Meanwhile, I can’t
find the particular radial approach I was thinking of in the book, although
many different radial schemes are discussed.</SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial color=black
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> </SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial color=black
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Concentric
system:</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial color=black
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> </SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial color=black
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The
problem with radials that simple radiate out from a central point is that they
do not cover each square meter of ground equally well. They are spaced
far apart at the ends and tightly bunched at the center. To get a
“really good” radial system it is sometimes recommended that 120 radials be
used or the ends be no more than 0.02 wavelength apart – broadcasters
frequently use 120. For the first few feet from the tower its nothing
but solid copper and most of this is wasted. The alternative is as
follows:</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial color=black
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> </SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial color=black
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Suppose
you want a 64 radial system of 100 foot radials. Place a concentric
circular loop wire 33 feet out from the center and another 66 feet out from
the tower. Connect 16 radials from the center to the fist ring wire, 32
radial wires from the first ring wire to the second, and 64 wires outward from
the outer ring wire to 100 feet. In all cases the wires should be
equally spaced around in azimuth angle. This system will use around 55%
as much copper as 64 full sized radials (I forget the exact ratio) and yield
the same performance. Soldering all the wires to the ring loops however,
is a lot of extra work. If its going to be in or on the ground for a
long time then regular solder should not be used either – it should be silver
solder.</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial color=black
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> </SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial color=black
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">73</SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=black><SPAN
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial color=black
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Hal</SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Arial color=black
size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">N4GG</SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=black><SPAN
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</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV><PRE style="BACKGROUND: white; MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><TT><FONT face="Courier New" color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black"><!-- end of AOLMsgPart_3_6d0b8287-d1b2-47fb-8daf-38b2ef6046d3 -->
<DIV id=AOLMsgPart_4_6d0b8287-d1b2-47fb-8daf-38b2ef6046d3>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></TT></DIV></PRE><PRE style="BACKGROUND: white; MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><TT><FONT face="Courier New" color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black">SECC mailing list<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></TT></PRE><PRE style="BACKGROUND: white; MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><TT><FONT face="Courier New" color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black"><A href="mailto:SECC@contesting.com">SECC@contesting.com</A><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></TT></PRE><PRE style="BACKGROUND: white; MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><TT><FONT face="Courier New" color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black"><A href="http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/secc" target=_blank>http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/secc</A><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></TT></PRE></DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; TEXT-ALIGN: center; mso-margin-top-alt: 7.5pt"
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<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV><!-- end of AOLMsgPart_4_6d0b8287-d1b2-47fb-8daf-38b2ef6046d3 -->
<P class=MsoNormal
style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; mso-margin-top-alt: 7.5pt"><FONT
face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black">Email and AIM finally together. You've
gotta check out free <A
href="http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/index.htm?ncid=AOLAOF00020000000970"
target=_blank>AOL Mail</A>!</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P></P>_______________________________________________<BR>SECC mailing
list<BR>SECC@contesting.com<BR>http://lists.contesting.com/mailman/listinfo/secc<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>